[FairfieldLife] Many Swami Brahmananda Saraswati discourses are waiting to be published

[Tormod Kinnes [e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

Hi

I have been informed in another group that there are about a thousand
discourses by Guru Dev in Hindi. Some have been published in English, but
most have not.

It has been stated by author Paul Mason that Maharishi owed most of his
core ideas to Guru Dev. Maharishi also published a series of Guru Dev
renderings.

It would be very good if TM-ers made it clear to TM leaders that here lies
an opportunity to promote a lot more from Guru Dev, who is the originator
of TM, the one honoured during the TM initiation, and the one that
Maharishi said this of: "He made me."

Guidance fit for folks - doesn't the TM movement see it?

Compare:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Shankaracharya_Swami_Brahmanand_Ji/info

Regards,

[salyavin808]

---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

Hi

I have been informed in another group that there are about a thousand discourses by Guru Dev in Hindi. Some have been published in English, but most have not.


It has been stated by author Paul Mason that Maharishi owed most of his core ideas to Guru Dev. Maharishi also published a series of Guru Dev renderings.


It would be very good if TM-ers made it clear to TM leaders that here lies an opportunity to promote a lot more from Guru Dev, who is the originator of TM, the one honoured during the TM initiation, and the one that Maharishi said this of: "He made me."


Guidance fit for folks - doesn't the TM movement see it?


I would imagine that once you've told everyone that none of Guru Dev's teachings survived it's a bit tricky to suddenly account for a few hundred books of them. Especially when he contradicts Marshy an awful lot. And isn't there a sentence in there about never charging for initiations as it damns both the teacher and pupil to hell? Oops...




Compare:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Shankaracharya_Swami_Brahmanand_Ji/info https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Shankaracharya_Swami_Brahmanand_Ji/info



Regards,
--
T. Kinnes

[Michael Jackson [e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

Of course the don't see it T Kinnes - the Movement became all about Marshy's supremacy and therefore TM being supreme since Marshy was the original TM teacher.

Not to mention the fact that no one in the Movement claimed that Guru Dev ever had the awareness to "cognize the full value of natural law" in ALL the veda like the claim Marshy did.

Ergo, the Movement considers Marshy superior to Guru Dev, even tho they would never admit it. Plus the Movement really doesn't give a damn about guru Dev - they only care about things that make money for themselves.

From: "Tormod Kinnes ***@gmail.com [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2014 9:17 AM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Many Swami Brahmananda Saraswati discourses are waiting to be published

  Hi
I have been informed in another group that there are about a thousand discourses by Guru Dev in Hindi. Some have been published in English, but most have not.
It has been stated by author Paul Mason that Maharishi owed most of his core ideas to Guru Dev. Maharishi also published a series of Guru Dev renderings.
It would be very good if TM-ers made it clear to TM leaders that here lies an opportunity to promote a lot more from Guru Dev, who is the originator of TM, the one honoured during the TM initiation, and the one that Maharishi said this of: "He made me."

Guidance fit for folks - doesn't the TM movement see it?
Compare:https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Shankaracharya_Swami_Brahmanand_Ji/info

Regards,--
T. Kinnes <!--#yiv7143915891 #yiv7143915891ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv7143915891 #yiv7143915891ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv7143915891 #yiv7143915891ygrp-mkp #yiv7143915891hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#yiv7143915891 #yiv7143915891ygrp-mkp #yiv7143915891ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv7143915891 #yiv7143915891ygrp-mkp .yiv7143915891ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv7143915891 #yiv7143915891ygrp-mkp .yiv7143915891ad p {margin:0;}#yiv7143915891 #yiv7143915891ygrp-mkp .yiv7143915891ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#yiv7143915891 #yiv7143915891ygrp-sponsor #yiv7143915891ygrp-lc {font-family:Arial;}#yiv7143915891 #yiv7143915891ygrp-sponsor #yiv7143915891ygrp-lc #yiv7143915891hd {margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}#yiv7143915891 #yiv7143915891ygrp-sponsor #yiv7143915891ygrp-lc .yiv7143915891ad {margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}#yiv7143915891 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[Bhairitu [e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

Post by Tormod Kinnes ***@gmail.com [FairfieldLife]
Hi
I have been informed in another group that there are about a thousand
discourses by Guru Dev in Hindi. Some have been published in English,
but most have not.
It has been stated by author Paul Mason that Maharishi owed most of
his core ideas to Guru Dev. Maharishi also published a series of Guru
Dev renderings.
It would be very good if TM-ers made it clear to TM leaders that here
lies an opportunity to promote a lot more from Guru Dev, who is the
originator of TM, the one honoured during the TM initiation, and the
one that Maharishi said this of: "He made me."

SBS did not originate TM, it's just an implementation of tantric
meditation which has been around for centuries. It was only "new" to
westerners or at least those who had not read Arthur Avalon.

[Tormod Kinnes [e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

"SBS did not originate TM, it's just an implementation of tantric
meditation which has been around for centuries. It was only "new" to
westerners or at least those who had not read Arthur Avalon."

Thanks for commenting. Now, if you can prove the claims you make, for
example by showing the passage(s) of John Woodroffe (alias Arthur Avalon),
it would taste better. I have read books by Woodroffe (Avalon), and cannot
recall the specifics of the TM method are divulged there at all. You get a
horde of mantras with variants, that is true, but not the Advaitic Smartist
system that TM traces its first mantras to, I would like to suggest.


Friendly

[Bhairitu [e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

I've done my homework in this field and *was* a TM teacher but also
studied with an authentic Indian tantric starting in early 2000. Plus
I've been to India and have also discussed this issue with others who
are expert in these matters. I gave examples of Arthur Avalon
(Woodroffe) to show that the mantras were published in the west before
Maharishi was even born. BTW, I also have read the published doctoral
thesis about Woodroffe's life and the writer opines that much of his
writings was not his work but of his Indian friend and tantric who was
not allowed to publish under British rule.

I also like to refer to Sivananda's "Mind Its Mysteries and Control"
which you can find online to point out the method of meditation TM uses
with the mantras is nothing new either as that work was first published
in 1936.

Thing is that TM uses beej mantras because they don't need any
empowerment. The puja helps but Indian astrologers and ayurvedic
practitioners hand them out to clients without any elaborate initiation.

I don't think anyone knows for sure where the beej mantras came from.
Those are lost in antiquity and undoubtedly commonly in use even at the
time of Shankara.

TM followers like to glorify it but TM is really just "yoga lite".

Hope that helps.

Post by Tormod Kinnes ***@gmail.com [FairfieldLife]
"SBS did not originate TM, it's just an implementation of tantric
meditation which has been around for centuries. It was only "new" to
westerners or at least those who had not read Arthur Avalon."
Thanks for commenting. Now, if you can prove the claims you make, for
example by showing the passage(s) of John Woodroffe (alias Arthur
Avalon), it would taste better. I have read books by Woodroffe
(Avalon), and cannot recall the specifics of the TM method are
divulged there at all. You get a horde of mantras with variants, that
is true, but not the Advaitic Smartist system that TM traces its first
mantras to, I would like to suggest.
Friendly
--
T. Kinnes

[[e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

Although all this was around before - something Maharishi openly admitted - his genius was that he took the knowledge, systematized it, and made it globally available, with TM.

This happens all the time with knowledge - I was reading about Man Ray's (Emmanuel Radnitzky) work in photography, and many of the techniques he used had been discovered previously, but no one before had popularized them, and made them accessible.
---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

I've done my homework in this field and was a TM teacher but also studied with an authentic Indian tantric starting in early 2000. Plus I've been to India and have also discussed this issue with others who are expert in these matters. I gave examples of Arthur Avalon (Woodroffe) to show that the mantras were published in the west before Maharishi was even born. BTW, I also have read the published doctoral thesis about Woodroffe's life and the writer opines that much of his writings was not his work but of his Indian friend and tantric who was not allowed to publish under British rule.

I also like to refer to Sivananda's "Mind Its Mysteries and Control" which you can find online to point out the method of meditation TM uses with the mantras is nothing new either as that work was first published in 1936.

Thing is that TM uses beej mantras because they don't need any empowerment. The puja helps but Indian astrologers and ayurvedic practitioners hand them out to clients without any elaborate initiation.

I don't think anyone knows for sure where the beej mantras came from. Those are lost in antiquity and undoubtedly commonly in use even at the time of Shankara.

TM followers like to glorify it but TM is really just "yoga lite".

Hope that helps.


On 11/22/2014 01:14 PM, Tormod Kinnes ***@... mailto:***@... [FairfieldLife] wrote:



"SBS did not originate TM, it's just an implementation of tantric meditation which has been around for centuries. It was only "new" to westerners or at least those who had not read Arthur Avalon."

Thanks for commenting. Now, if you can prove the claims you make, for example by showing the passage(s) of John Woodroffe (alias Arthur Avalon), it would taste better. I have read books by Woodroffe (Avalon), and cannot recall the specifics of the TM method are divulged there at all. You get a horde of mantras with variants, that is true, but not the Advaitic Smartist system that TM traces its first mantras to, I would like to suggest.




Friendly
--
T. Kinnes

[Tormod Kinnes [e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

Dear Bhairatu

You write of your background for saying "TM is nothing but . . .". Good.
But I cannot help noting that you still don't give real examples to
document your stand.

For example, you write:

"I also like to refer to Sivananda's "Mind Its Mysteries and Control" . .

. to point out the method of meditation TM uses with the mantras is nothing
new either as that work was first published in 1936."

I took the trouble to search through Sivananda's book, but if it contains
anything specific about the TM system, I missed it.
The Smartist mantras and the main criteria for selecting from among them
are not specified there, not as far as I could see after a quick search.
Nor are Guru Dev's warning that OM (which is often found in Sivananda's
writings) is not a proper mantra for householders.

You write

"mantras were published in the west before Maharishi".


Yes, but a mass of syllables is not the TM system either. Many sounds and
words of the language - Long, Fine, and so on - may in fact be used as
mantras.


Then you suggest something about seed sounds:

"TM uses beej mantras because they don't need any empowerment."


You also say that the TM initiation ceremony helps, and that other ways may
help too.

"The puja helps but Indian astrologers and ayurvedic practitioners hand

them out to clients without any elaborate initiation."

In Guru Dev's discourses one finds a similar view in choosing the mantras.
One gets a suitable mantra either by the guru or in some other way. Paul
Mason has gathered, translated and published several books with ideas of
Guru Dev.

"where the beej mantras came from . . lost in antiquity and undoubtedly

commonly in use even at the time of Shankara."

This seems to be speculation.

"TM is really just "yoga lite". -


I should say your proofs are lite too. Good, specific documentation is the
thing called for.

ROUNDING OFF

There are some sources outside TM, sources that reveal the settings and
transmission to Maharishi when he was trained by Guru Dev, benefited by his
company, and was asked to bring swift and deep meditation to the masses.

Elsa Dragemark presents Dr. Raj Varma:

"Doctor Varma came to Guru Dev six months before Maharishi and knows more

about Guru Dev and Maharishi than any other person I have met. [p. 240]

Dr. Raj Varma tells (in Elsa Dragemark. The Way to Maharishi's Himalayas.
Stockholm: E. Dragemark, 1972):


........................................

Maharishi loyally followed in his master's footsteps. . . .

Maharishi stayed with Guru Dev until the day his master left his body. It
was in Calcutta, the 20th of May, 1953.
— My time is up. It is time to leave, but still one thing remains. There
was something else I should have done, but I did not have the time to carry
it out. It is the usual custom that the work remaining for a guru is
completed by his disciples. It is a tradition that the father's task is
completed by his son and what now remains you shall complete by yourself.
— Master, Maharishi said, by your lotus feet, what remains? Your wish is
my command. What do you wish, tell me, so that I can fulfil it. Guru Dev
— Look around. Many people are dejected. There is a lack of energy in
their minds. Their minds are not strong enough. What I {p. 261] have taught
you also contains the knowledge of the technique for the householder, which
has been misinterpreted and forgotten during the centuries. This should now
be perfected into a simple method suitable for everyone. Ask the people to
sit and meditate after this method a few moments every morning and evening.
Teach them to enjoy life. . . .

........................................

Accordingly, basic TM is meant to be a well simplified and streamlined
mantra meditation for others than monks. It is mantra meditation, yes, but
there is a system beneath also (it seems to be Smartism), and Guru Dev's
teaching that OM is to be avoided among householders, but not necessarily
by monks and nuns.

Thus, there are mantras you won't find in TM. I should say it is
specialised mantra lore, with some elements in common with other mantra
teachings, as you suggest, but with a few decisive characteristics of its
own too.

If other mantra methods eventually come up with research documentation that
is as good as the better TM documentation,
I won't say TM stands out a lot.


Till then . . .

Regards,

[[e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

Thank you for sharing that - I always enjoy hearing about SBS, from someone who has done the research.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

Dear Bhairatu

You write of your background for saying "TM is nothing but . . .". Good. But I cannot help noting that you still don't give real examples to document your stand.


For example, you write:


"I also like to refer to Sivananda's "Mind Its Mysteries and Control" . . . to point out the method of meditation TM uses with the mantras is nothing new either as that work was first published in 1936."

I took the trouble to search through Sivananda's book, but if it contains anything specific about the TM system, I missed it.
The Smartist mantras and the main criteria for selecting from among them are not specified there, not as far as I could see after a quick search. Nor are Guru Dev's warning that OM (which is often found in Sivananda's writings) is not a proper mantra for householders.


You write


"mantras were published in the west before Maharishi".

Yes, but a mass of syllables is not the TM system either. Many sounds and words of the language - Long, Fine, and so on - may in fact be used as mantras.



Then you suggest something about seed sounds:


"TM uses beej mantras because they don't need any empowerment."

You also say that the TM initiation ceremony helps, and that other ways may help too.


"The puja helps but Indian astrologers and ayurvedic practitioners hand them out to clients without any elaborate initiation."

In Guru Dev's discourses one finds a similar view in choosing the mantras. One gets a suitable mantra either by the guru or in some other way. Paul Mason has gathered, translated and published several books with ideas of Guru Dev.


"where the beej mantras came from . . lost in antiquity and undoubtedly commonly in use even at the time of Shankara."

This seems to be speculation.

"TM is really just "yoga lite". -


I should say your proofs are lite too. Good, specific documentation is the thing called for.


ROUNDING OFF


There are some sources outside TM, sources that reveal the settings and transmission to Maharishi when he was trained by Guru Dev, benefited by his company, and was asked to bring swift and deep meditation to the masses.

Elsa Dragemark presents Dr. Raj Varma:


"Doctor Varma came to Guru Dev six months before Maharishi and knows more about Guru Dev and Maharishi than any other person I have met. [p. 240]
Dr. Raj Varma tells (in Elsa Dragemark. The Way to Maharishi's Himalayas. Stockholm: E. Dragemark, 1972):



........................................


Maharishi loyally followed in his master's footsteps. . . .
Maharishi stayed with Guru Dev until the day his master left his body. It was in Calcutta, the 20th of May, 1953.
Guru Dev then called Maharishi and asked him to sit down. Guru Dev said:
— My time is up. It is time to leave, but still one thing remains. There was something else I should have done, but I did not have the time to carry it out. It is the usual custom that the work remaining for a guru is completed by his disciples. It is a tradition that the father's task is completed by his son and what now remains you shall complete by yourself.
— Master, Maharishi said, by your lotus feet, what remains? Your wish is my command. What do you wish, tell me, so that I can fulfil it. Guru Dev said:
— Look around. Many people are dejected. There is a lack of energy in their minds. Their minds are not strong enough. What I {p. 261] have taught you also contains the knowledge of the technique for the householder, which has been misinterpreted and forgotten during the centuries. This should now be perfected into a simple method suitable for everyone. Ask the people to sit and meditate after this method a few moments every morning and evening. Teach them to enjoy life. . . .

........................................


Accordingly, basic TM is meant to be a well simplified and streamlined mantra meditation for others than monks. It is mantra meditation, yes, but there is a system beneath also (it seems to be Smartism), and Guru Dev's teaching that OM is to be avoided among householders, but not necessarily by monks and nuns.


Thus, there are mantras you won't find in TM. I should say it is specialised mantra lore, with some elements in common with other mantra teachings, as you suggest, but with a few decisive characteristics of its own too.


If other mantra methods eventually come up with research documentation that is as good as the better TM documentation,
I won't say TM stands out a lot.




Till then . . .


Regards,

--

T. Kinnes

[Bhairitu [e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

Post by Tormod Kinnes ***@gmail.com [FairfieldLife]
Dear Bhairatu
You write of your background for saying "TM is nothing but . . .".
Good. But I cannot help noting that you still don't give real examples
to document your stand.

Why would I want to take the the time with you? I'm just suggesting
some things to look into so you can start a journey of true knowledge.

Post by Tormod Kinnes ***@gmail.com [FairfieldLife]
"I also like to refer to Sivananda's "Mind Its Mysteries and
Control" . . . to point out the method of meditation TM uses with
the mantras is nothing new either as that work was first published
in 1936."
I took the trouble to search through Sivananda's book, but if it
contains anything specific about the TM system, I missed it.
The Smartist mantras and the main criteria for selecting from among
them are not specified there, not as far as I could see after a quick
search. Nor are Guru Dev's warning that OM (which is often found in
Sivananda's writings) is not a proper mantra for householders.

Read the section on meditation. You are going to need more than
superficial abilities to understand mantra shastra.

Post by Tormod Kinnes ***@gmail.com [FairfieldLife]
You write
"mantras were published in the west before Maharishi".
Yes, but a mass of syllables is not the TM system either. Many sounds
and words of the language - Long, Fine, and so on - may in fact be
used as mantras.

Have you even studied Sanskrit?

Post by Tormod Kinnes ***@gmail.com [FairfieldLife]
"TM uses beej mantras because they don't need any empowerment."
You also say that the TM initiation ceremony helps, and that other
ways may help too.

Do you know what shaktipat is?

Post by Tormod Kinnes ***@gmail.com [FairfieldLife]
"The puja helps but Indian astrologers and ayurvedic practitioners
hand them out to clients without any elaborate initiation."
In Guru Dev's discourses one finds a similar view in choosing the
mantras. One gets a suitable mantra either by the guru or in some
other way. Paul Mason has gathered, translated and published several
books with ideas of Guru Dev.
"where the beej mantras came from . . lost in antiquity and
undoubtedly commonly in use even at the time of Shankara."
This seems to be speculation.

The opinion of many scholars not just mine.

Post by Tormod Kinnes ***@gmail.com [FairfieldLife]
"TM is really just "yoga lite". -
I should say your proofs are lite too. Good, specific documentation is
the thing called for.

Then you don't know what is meant by "yoga lite". You probably don't
even know the real meaning of yoga.

Post by Tormod Kinnes ***@gmail.com [FairfieldLife]
ROUNDING OFF
There are some sources outside TM, sources that reveal the settings
and transmission to Maharishi when he was trained by Guru Dev,
benefited by his company, and was asked to bring swift and deep
meditation to the masses.
"Doctor Varma came to Guru Dev six months before Maharishi and
knows more about Guru Dev and Maharishi than any other person I
have met. [p. 240]
Dr. Raj Varma tells (in Elsa Dragemark. The Way to Maharishi's
........................................
Maharishi loyally followed in his master's footsteps. . . .
Maharishi stayed with Guru Dev until the day his master left his
body. It was in Calcutta, the 20th of May, 1953.
— My time is up. It is time to leave, but still one thing remains.
There was something else I should have done, but I did not have
the time to carry it out. It is the usual custom that the work
remaining for a guru is completed by his disciples. It is a
tradition that the father's task is completed by his son and what
now remains you shall complete by yourself.
— Master, Maharishi said, by your lotus feet, what remains? Your
wish is my command. What do you wish, tell me, so that I can
— Look around. Many people are dejected. There is a lack of energy
in their minds. Their minds are not strong enough. What I {p. 261]
have taught you also contains the knowledge of the technique for
the householder, which has been misinterpreted and forgotten
during the centuries. This should now be perfected into a simple
method suitable for everyone. Ask the people to sit and meditate
after this method a few moments every morning and evening. Teach
them to enjoy life. . . .
........................................
Accordingly, basic TM is meant to be a well simplified and streamlined
mantra meditation for others than monks. It is mantra meditation, yes,
but there is a system beneath also (it seems to be Smartism), and Guru
Dev's teaching that OM is to be avoided among householders, but not
necessarily by monks and nuns.
Thus, there are mantras you won't find in TM. I should say it is
specialised mantra lore, with some elements in common with other
mantra teachings, as you suggest, but with a few decisive
characteristics of its own too.
If other mantra methods eventually come up with research documentation
that is as good as the better TM documentation,
I won't say TM stands out a lot.
Till then . . .
Regards,
--
T. Kinnes

You know, I'm not the only one here who has experience outside the realm
of TM. Rick has also interviewed a number of people who have gone
beyond TM. Perhaps you should go watch some of those interviews. Try
getting out of the TM true believer box for a change. It makes you
sound arrogant and yogis would just laugh at you.

['Richard J. Williams' [e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

Post by Bhairitu ***@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]
Do you know what shaktipat is?

The term "Shaktipat" in Sanskrit means /the transference of psychic
energy to another person/ either by means of an initiation, a sacred
word or phrase, a mantra, a touch or even a thought or a mere glance.
Swami Muktananda was a great teacher of the shakti tradition who used
shaktipat on many occasions to initiate his students.

The question is, how or why did the Shankara Saraswati tradition adopt
the shakti siddha doctrine?

According to this tradition, Shankara journeyed to Kamarup - the present
Guwahati-in Assam and held a controversy with Abhinava Gupta, the Shakta
commentator. Kamarupa is the site of an ancient tantric cult of the
Shakti Kamakhya which is located in Assam. It is one of the main
Shakti-pithas in the tanric Shakti cult. Shankara supposedly won an
important debate with Abhinava.

Shankara then went to the Himalayas and built a Mutt at Joshi and a
Mandir at Badri and then he then proceeded to Kedarnath higher up in the
Himalayas where he became one with the Shakti Devi in 820 A.D. in his
thirty-second year.

The Sharda Temple, which by tradition was visited by Shankara in his
travels, is located in Kishanganga Valley just across the Line of
Control in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir. The meaning of this tradition
story is that Shankara reached the peak of spirituality when he
converted to Shaki worship.

As it is not possible to visit this shakti peetha, one can visit the
famous Saraswathi temple in Basara in Nizamabad district of Andhra
Pradesh. Basara is 200 km from Hyderabad. You can read more about the
Shakti Pithas here:

http://www.srinithyakalyani.org/index.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamakhya

Suggested Reading:

*Play of Consciousness: A Spiritual Autobiography*
by Swami Muktananda, Gurumayi Chidvilasananda and Paul Muller-Ortega
SYDA Foundation, 1994

*Secret of the Siddhas*
by Swami Muktananda
SYDA Foundation, 1994

*The Doctrine of Vibration*
An Analysis of the Doctrines and Practices of Kashmir Shaivism
by Mark S. G. Dyczkowski
State University of New York Press, 1987

*Meditation Revolution*
A History and Theology of the Siddha Yoga Lineage
by S.P. Sabharathnam and Douglas Brooks
Agama Press, 1997

[Michael Jackson [e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

Refreshing - we see that not everyone is impressed with "I went to India and so I'm an expert."

From: "Tormod Kinnes ***@gmail.com [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2014 5:51 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Many Swami Brahmananda Saraswati discourses are waiting to be published

  Dear Bhairatu
You write of your background for saying "TM is nothing but . . .". Good. But I cannot help noting that you still don't give real examples to document your stand. 
For example, you write: 

"I also like to refer to Sivananda's "Mind Its Mysteries and Control"  . . . to point out the method of meditation TM uses with the mantras is nothing new either as that work was first published in 1936."

I took the trouble to search through Sivananda's book, but if it contains anything specific about the TM system, I missed it. The Smartist mantras and the main criteria for selecting from among them are not specified there, not as far as I could see after a quick search. Nor are Guru Dev's warning that OM (which is often found in Sivananda's writings) is not a proper mantra for householders.
You write

"mantras were published in the west before Maharishi". 

Yes, but a mass of syllables is not the TM system either. Many sounds and words of the language  - Long, Fine, and so on - may in fact be used as mantras.

Then you suggest something about seed sounds:

 "TM uses beej mantras because they don't need any empowerment." 

You also say that the TM initiation ceremony helps, and that other ways may help too. 

"The puja helps but Indian astrologers and ayurvedic practitioners hand them out to clients without any elaborate initiation."

In Guru Dev's discourses one finds a similar view in choosing the mantras. One gets a suitable mantra either by the guru or in some other way. Paul Mason has gathered, translated and published several books with ideas of Guru Dev. 

"where the beej mantras came from . . lost in antiquity and undoubtedly commonly in use even at the time of Shankara." 

This seems to be speculation.


"TM is really just "yoga lite". - 

I should say your proofs are lite too. Good, specific documentation is the thing called for.
ROUNDING OFF
There are some sources outside TM, sources that reveal the settings and transmission to Maharishi when he was trained by Guru Dev, benefited by his company, and was asked to bring swift and deep meditation to the masses. 
Elsa Dragemark presents Dr. Raj Varma:

 "Doctor Varma came to Guru Dev six months before Maharishi and knows more about Guru Dev and Maharishi than any other person I have met. [p. 240]

Dr. Raj Varma tells (in Elsa Dragemark. The Way to Maharishi's Himalayas.  Stockholm: E. Dragemark, 1972):
........................................

Maharishi loyally followed in his master's footsteps. . . .
Maharishi stayed with Guru Dev until the day his master left his body. It was in Calcutta, the 20th of May, 1953.
Guru Dev then called Maharishi and asked him to sit down. Guru Dev said:
— My time is up. It is time to leave, but still one thing remains. There was something else I should have done, but I did not have the time to carry it out. It is the usual custom that the work remaining for a guru is completed by his disciples. It is a tradition that the father's task is completed by his son and what now remains you shall complete by yourself.
— Master, Maharishi said, by your lotus feet, what remains? Your wish is my command. What do you wish, tell me, so that I can fulfil it. Guru Dev said:
— Look around. Many people are dejected. There is a lack of energy in their minds. Their minds are not strong enough. What I {p. 261] have taught you also contains the knowledge of the technique for the householder, which has been misinterpreted and forgotten during the centuries. This should now be perfected into a simple method suitable for everyone. Ask the people to sit and meditate after this method a few moments every morning and evening. Teach them to enjoy life. . . .

........................................
Accordingly, basic TM is meant to be a well simplified and streamlined mantra meditation for others than monks. It is mantra meditation, yes, but there is a system beneath also (it seems to be Smartism), and Guru Dev's teaching that OM is to be avoided among householders, but not necessarily by monks and nuns.
Thus, there are mantras you won't find in TM. I should say it is specialised mantra lore, with some elements in common with other mantra teachings, as you suggest, but with a few decisive characteristics of its own too.
If other mantra methods eventually come up with research documentation that is as good as the better TM documentation, I won't say TM stands out a lot.

Till then . . . 
Regards,
-- 
T. Kinnes #yiv5907422750 #yiv5907422750 -- #yiv5907422750ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv5907422750 #yiv5907422750ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv5907422750 #yiv5907422750ygrp-mkp #yiv5907422750hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#yiv5907422750 #yiv5907422750ygrp-mkp #yiv5907422750ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv5907422750 #yiv5907422750ygrp-mkp .yiv5907422750ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv5907422750 #yiv5907422750ygrp-mkp .yiv5907422750ad p {margin:0;}#yiv5907422750 #yiv5907422750ygrp-mkp .yiv5907422750ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#yiv5907422750 #yiv5907422750ygrp-sponsor #yiv5907422750ygrp-lc {font-family:Arial;}#yiv5907422750 #yiv5907422750ygrp-sponsor #yiv5907422750ygrp-lc #yiv5907422750hd {margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}#yiv5907422750 #yiv5907422750ygrp-sponsor #yiv5907422750ygrp-lc .yiv5907422750ad {margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 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[Bhairitu [e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

Visiting India will give you an understanding of their culture which you
cannot otherwise get. And you MJ, make huge mistakes misunderstanding
Indian culture. What would you think if someone told you how some bakery
good you make tastes if they never eaten it?

Post by Michael Jackson ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
Refreshing - we see that not everyone is impressed with "I went to
India and so I'm an expert."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Sent:* Saturday, November 22, 2014 5:51 PM
*Subject:* Re: [FairfieldLife] Many Swami Brahmananda Saraswati
discourses are waiting to be published
Dear Bhairatu
You write of your background for saying "TM is nothing but . . .".
Good. But I cannot help noting that you still don't give real examples
to document your stand.
"I also like to refer to Sivananda's "Mind Its Mysteries and
Control" . . . to point out the method of meditation TM uses with
the mantras is nothing new either as that work was first published
in 1936."
I took the trouble to search through Sivananda's book, but if it
contains anything specific about the TM system, I missed it.
The Smartist mantras and the main criteria for selecting from among
them are not specified there, not as far as I could see after a quick
search. Nor are Guru Dev's warning that OM (which is often found in
Sivananda's writings) is not a proper mantra for householders.
You write
"mantras were published in the west before Maharishi".
Yes, but a mass of syllables is not the TM system either. Many sounds
and words of the language - Long, Fine, and so on - may in fact be
used as mantras.
"TM uses beej mantras because they don't need any empowerment."
You also say that the TM initiation ceremony helps, and that other
ways may help too.
"The puja helps but Indian astrologers and ayurvedic practitioners
hand them out to clients without any elaborate initiation."
In Guru Dev's discourses one finds a similar view in choosing the
mantras. One gets a suitable mantra either by the guru or in some
other way. Paul Mason has gathered, translated and published several
books with ideas of Guru Dev.
"where the beej mantras came from . . lost in antiquity and
undoubtedly commonly in use even at the time of Shankara."
This seems to be speculation.
"TM is really just "yoga lite". -
I should say your proofs are lite too. Good, specific documentation is
the thing called for.
ROUNDING OFF
There are some sources outside TM, sources that reveal the settings
and transmission to Maharishi when he was trained by Guru Dev,
benefited by his company, and was asked to bring swift and deep
meditation to the masses.
"Doctor Varma came to Guru Dev six months before Maharishi and
knows more about Guru Dev and Maharishi than any other person I
have met. [p. 240]
Dr. Raj Varma tells (in Elsa Dragemark. The Way to Maharishi's
........................................
Maharishi loyally followed in his master's footsteps. . . .
Maharishi stayed with Guru Dev until the day his master left his
body. It was in Calcutta, the 20th of May, 1953.
— My time is up. It is time to leave, but still one thing remains.
There was something else I should have done, but I did not have
the time to carry it out. It is the usual custom that the work
remaining for a guru is completed by his disciples. It is a
tradition that the father's task is completed by his son and what
now remains you shall complete by yourself.
— Master, Maharishi said, by your lotus feet, what remains? Your
wish is my command. What do you wish, tell me, so that I can
— Look around. Many people are dejected. There is a lack of energy
in their minds. Their minds are not strong enough. What I {p. 261]
have taught you also contains the knowledge of the technique for
the householder, which has been misinterpreted and forgotten
during the centuries. This should now be perfected into a simple
method suitable for everyone. Ask the people to sit and meditate
after this method a few moments every morning and evening. Teach
them to enjoy life. . . .
........................................
Accordingly, basic TM is meant to be a well simplified and streamlined
mantra meditation for others than monks. It is mantra meditation, yes,
but there is a system beneath also (it seems to be Smartism), and Guru
Dev's teaching that OM is to be avoided among householders, but not
necessarily by monks and nuns.
Thus, there are mantras you won't find in TM. I should say it is
specialised mantra lore, with some elements in common with other
mantra teachings, as you suggest, but with a few decisive
characteristics of its own too.
If other mantra methods eventually come up with research documentation
that is as good as the better TM documentation,
I won't say TM stands out a lot.
Till then . . .
Regards,
--
T. Kinnes

[[e-mail]]

Maharishi originated TM. He was not allowing himself to be on the puja table while alive but he should be now. No-one else's teaching is at all needed . Good for you to be doing service to Brahmanada Saraswati but there is no greater teacher than Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Maharishi Mahesh Yogi is our Guru Dev now. Maharaja is also our Guru Dev. Jaya Guru Deva.

[Bhairitu [e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

Post by ***@ymail.com
Maharishi originated TM.

He repacked traditional "meditation for the masses." In fact it is
known he only gave out "Ram" as the mantra in the beginning. And he
also gave shaktipat. He modified it over time and we don't know who
made the suggestion but there are a lot of people in India who could
have suggested the changes including maybe his astrologer.

Post by ***@ymail.com
He was not allowing himself to be on the puja table while alive but he
should be now.

Under tradition we was not an acharya and thus could not be a "guru dev".

Post by ***@ymail.com
No-one else's teaching is at all needed .

That mantra set will not work for everyone. If you really want to learn
more the TMO doesn't offer that. You can't become an acharya with TM.

Post by ***@ymail.com
Good for you to be doing service to Brahmanada Saraswati but there is
no greater teacher than Maharishi Mahesh Yogi.

So you say. There have been many great teachers. It is not demeaning
to MMY nor SBS to say so either. We just seem to have some zealots
around who want to turn TM into a religion.

Post by ***@ymail.com
Maharishi Mahesh Yogi is our Guru Dev now.

Not really as explained above. Don't hold MMY to things he wasn't set
up for.

Post by ***@ymail.com
Maharaja is also our Guru Dev. Jaya Guru Deva.

And that would be messing with the "purity of the teaching".

[[e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

NNY didn't allow himself on the puja table when he was alive....

And so, now that he is dead, you're going to go against his express wishes that he made clear while he was alive.... because???


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@yahoogroups.com> wrote :

Maharishi originated TM. He was not allowing himself to be on the puja table while alive but he should be now. No-one else's teaching is at all needed . Good for you to be doing service to Brahmanada Saraswati but there is no greater teacher than Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Maharishi Mahesh Yogi is our Guru Dev now. Maharaja is also our Guru Dev. Jaya Guru Deva.

[Tormod Kinnes [e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

Here are books rich in teachings of Guru Dev.

Mason, Paul. *108 Discourses of Guru Dev: The Life and Teachings of Swami
Brahmananda Saraswati, Shankaracharya of Jyotirmath (1941-53). Vol 1*.
Penzance, Cornwall: Premanand, 2009. -- From a book review by Michael
Laughrin, ***@jyotish.ws

*"108 Discourses of Guru Dev* by Paul Mason is, in my opinion, the most
important and BEST spiritual book written in the last 100 years. Swami
Brahmananda Saraswati was affectionately known as Guru Dev.

"Guru Dev was the Shankaracharya of Jyotir Math, the northernmost of the 4
seats of the Shankaracharyas established by Shankara between 1500 and 2000
years ago. This northernmost seat was vacant for many years until Guru Dev,
who had been leading the life of a solitary saint living in the forest and
mountains, finally agreed to take the seat.

These little 'sermons' (none is longer than 4 pages) are exceedingly clear,
uplifting, and to the point. This volume has the discourses in the original
Hindi and also in English (thank God, as my Hindi is not what is used to
be). Of all the modern spiritual books that I have read, this one cuts
through the junk like a sword and reveals the diamond truth that is at the
core of the Vedic teachings. Most of the important topics are mentioned,
such as Enlightenment (moksha), meditation, karma, the caste system,
possessions, obstacles on the Path, Maya, dharma, and many, many others.""

Mason, Paul. *The Biography of Guru Dev: The Life and Teachings of Swami
Brahmananda Saraswati, Shankaracharya of Jyotirmath (1941-53). Vol 2*.
Penzance, Cornwall: Premanand, 2009.

Mason, Paul. *Guru Dev as presented by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi: The Life and
Teachings of Swami Brahmananda Saraswati, Shankaracharya of Jyotirmath
(1941-53). Vol 3*. Penzance, Cornwall: Premanand, 2009.

Mason, Paul. *Guru Dev: Life and Teachings of Shankaracharya Swami
Brahmananda Saraswati.* Compiled by Paul Mason. 2012. Online [◩Link]
<http://www.paulmason.info/gurudev/gurudev.htm>

Shriver, LB Trusty. *The Sweet Teachings of the Blessed Sankaracarya Swami
Brahmananda Saraswati.*. Tr. and contr. Cynthia Ann Humes. Raleigh, NC:
Lulu.com, 2013. —— Professor Humes supplied the annotations.

Tiwari, Rameswar, compiler, LB Trusty Shriver, ed, and Cynthia Ann Humes,
ed. *Rocks Are Melting: The Everyday Teachings of Swami Brahmananda
Saraswati* Fairfield, IA: Clear River Press, 2000. —— Scanned hard-copy (
*online*) manuscript, with annotations. May be tried as a companion to Paul
Mason's *108 Discourses of Guru Dev*.


In addition, as mentioned in my first post, dedicated folks try to collect,
preserve and have still more Guru Dev discourses translated. Funds would be
good. Spreading the news too. A Yahoo group (see first post) is open so one
may see what happens.

For more information and sermons by the gurudev of the TM movement, there
are Paul Mason's pages.

http://paulmason.info/gurudev/gurudev.htm

[nablusoss1008]

You can't take that guy serious, noone in his right mind read books by Paul Mason. He has a simple agenda; to make money.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

Here are books rich in teachings of Guru Dev.

Mason, Paul. 108 Discourses of Guru Dev: The Life and Teachings of Swami Brahmananda Saraswati, Shankaracharya of Jyotirmath (1941-53). Vol 1. Penzance, Cornwall: Premanand, 2009. -- From a book review by Michael Laughrin, ***@... mailto:***@...

"108 Discourses of Guru Dev by Paul Mason is, in my opinion, the most important and BEST spiritual book written in the last 100 years. Swami Brahmananda Saraswati was affectionately known as Guru Dev.

"Guru Dev was the Shankaracharya of Jyotir Math, the northernmost of the 4 seats of the Shankaracharyas established by Shankara between 1500 and 2000 years ago. This northernmost seat was vacant for many years until Guru Dev, who had been leading the life of a solitary saint living in the forest and mountains, finally agreed to take the seat.

These little 'sermons' (none is longer than 4 pages) are exceedingly clear, uplifting, and to the point. This volume has the discourses in the original Hindi and also in English (thank God, as my Hindi is not what is used to be). Of all the modern spiritual books that I have read, this one cuts through the junk like a sword and reveals the diamond truth that is at the core of the Vedic teachings. Most of the important topics are mentioned, such as Enlightenment (moksha), meditation, karma, the caste system, possessions, obstacles on the Path, Maya, dharma, and many, many others.""

Mason, Paul. The Biography of Guru Dev: The Life and Teachings of Swami Brahmananda Saraswati, Shankaracharya of Jyotirmath (1941-53). Vol 2. Penzance, Cornwall: Premanand, 2009.
Mason, Paul. Guru Dev as presented by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi: The Life and Teachings of Swami Brahmananda Saraswati, Shankaracharya of Jyotirmath (1941-53). Vol 3. Penzance, Cornwall: Premanand, 2009.
Mason, Paul. Guru Dev: Life and Teachings of Shankaracharya Swami Brahmananda Saraswati. Compiled by Paul Mason. 2012. Online [◩Link] http://www.paulmason.info/gurudev/gurudev.htm
Shriver, LB Trusty. The Sweet Teachings of the Blessed Sankaracarya Swami Brahmananda Saraswati.. Tr. and contr. Cynthia Ann Humes. Raleigh, NC: Lulu.com, 2013. —— Professor Humes supplied the annotations.
Tiwari, Rameswar, compiler, LB Trusty Shriver, ed, and Cynthia Ann Humes, ed. Rocks Are Melting: The Everyday Teachings of Swami Brahmananda Saraswati Fairfield, IA: Clear River Press, 2000. —— Scanned hard-copy (online) manuscript, with annotations. May be tried as a companion to Paul Mason's 108 Discourses of Guru Dev.


In addition, as mentioned in my first post, dedicated folks try to collect, preserve and have still more Guru Dev discourses translated. Funds would be good. Spreading the news too. A Yahoo group (see first post) is open so one may see what happens.

For more information and sermons by the gurudev of the TM movement, there are Paul Mason's pages.



--
T. Kinnes

[Michael Jackson [e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

Then you should be in love with him since that was Marshy's main agenda too.

From: nablusoss1008 <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2014 3:53 PM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Many Swami Brahmananda Saraswati discourses are waiting to be published

  You can't take that guy serious, noone in his right mind read books by Paul Mason. He has a simple agenda; to make money.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

Here are books rich in teachings of Guru Dev.
Mason, Paul. 108 Discourses of Guru Dev: TheLife and Teachings of Swami Brahmananda Saraswati, Shankaracharya of Jyotirmath(1941-53). Vol 1. Penzance,Cornwall: Premanand, 2009. -- From a book review by Michael Laughrin,  ***@...
"108 Discourses of Guru Dev by Paul Mason is, in my opinion, the most important and BEST spiritual book written in the last 100 years. Swami Brahmananda Saraswati was affectionately known as Guru Dev.

"Guru Dev was the Shankaracharya of Jyotir Math, the northernmost of the 4 seats of the Shankaracharyas established by Shankara between 1500 and 2000 years ago. This northernmost seat was vacant for many years until Guru Dev, who had been leading the life of a solitary saint living in the forest and mountains, finally agreed to take the seat.

These little 'sermons' (none is longer than 4 pages) are exceedingly clear, uplifting, and to the point. This volume has the discourses in the original Hindi and also in English (thank God, as my Hindi is not what is used to be). Of all the modern spiritual books that I have read, this one cuts through the junk like a sword and reveals the diamond truth that is at the core of the Vedic teachings. Most of the important topics are mentioned, such as Enlightenment (moksha), meditation, karma, the caste system, possessions, obstacles on the Path, Maya, dharma, and many, many others.""
Mason, Paul. The Biography of Guru Dev: TheLife and Teachings of Swami Brahmananda Saraswati, Shankaracharya of Jyotirmath(1941-53). Vol 2. Penzance,Cornwall: Premanand, 2009.Mason, Paul. Guru Dev as presented byMaharishi Mahesh Yogi: The Life and Teachings of Swami Brahmananda Saraswati,Shankaracharya of Jyotirmath (1941-53). Vol 3. Penzance, Cornwall: Premanand, 2009.Mason, Paul. Guru Dev: Life and Teachings ofShankaracharya Swami Brahmananda Saraswati. Compiled by Paul Mason. 2012.Online [◩Link]Shriver, LBTrusty. The Sweet Teachings of the Blessed Sankaracarya SwamiBrahmananda Saraswati..Tr. and contr. Cynthia Ann Humes. Raleigh, NC: Lulu.com, 2013. —— ProfessorHumes supplied the annotations.Tiwari, Rameswar,compiler, LB Trusty Shriver, ed, and Cynthia Ann Humes, ed. Rocks Are Melting: The EverydayTeachings of Swami Brahmananda Saraswati Fairfield, IA: Clear RiverPress, 2000. —— Scanned hard-copy (online) manuscript, with annotations. May be tried asa companion to Paul Mason's 108 Discourses of Guru Dev.
In addition, as mentioned in my first post, dedicated folks try to collect, preserve and have still more Guru Dev discourses translated. Funds would be good. Spreading the news too. A Yahoo group (see first post) is open so one may see what happens.

For more information and sermons by the gurudev of the TM movement, there are Paul Mason's pages.

[salyavin808]

---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@yahoogroups.com> wrote :

You can't take that guy serious, noone in his right mind read books by Paul Mason. He has a simple agenda; to make money.


I think his agenda is to find and publish what the TM movement wouldn't dare or couldn't be bothered with. . Yes, he actually does research, it's a funny thing that the TMO won't allow his books in centres. You'd think they'd be interested.


And it's done out of devotion not a love of money. Let's face it, if you're after a lucrative publishing contract, dead and obscure Indian saints probably aren't the way to go. Especially as he publishes it online as well as in print form.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

Here are books rich in teachings of Guru Dev.

Mason, Paul. 108 Discourses of Guru Dev: The Life and Teachings of Swami Brahmananda Saraswati, Shankaracharya of Jyotirmath (1941-53). Vol 1. Penzance, Cornwall: Premanand, 2009. -- From a book review by Michael Laughrin, ***@... mailto:***@...

"108 Discourses of Guru Dev by Paul Mason is, in my opinion, the most important and BEST spiritual book written in the last 100 years. Swami Brahmananda Saraswati was affectionately known as Guru Dev.

"Guru Dev was the Shankaracharya of Jyotir Math, the northernmost of the 4 seats of the Shankaracharyas established by Shankara between 1500 and 2000 years ago. This northernmost seat was vacant for many years until Guru Dev, who had been leading the life of a solitary saint living in the forest and mountains, finally agreed to take the seat.

These little 'sermons' (none is longer than 4 pages) are exceedingly clear, uplifting, and to the point. This volume has the discourses in the original Hindi and also in English (thank God, as my Hindi is not what is used to be). Of all the modern spiritual books that I have read, this one cuts through the junk like a sword and reveals the diamond truth that is at the core of the Vedic teachings. Most of the important topics are mentioned, such as Enlightenment (moksha), meditation, karma, the caste system, possessions, obstacles on the Path, Maya, dharma, and many, many others.""

Mason, Paul. The Biography of Guru Dev: The Life and Teachings of Swami Brahmananda Saraswati, Shankaracharya of Jyotirmath (1941-53). Vol 2. Penzance, Cornwall: Premanand, 2009.
Mason, Paul. Guru Dev as presented by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi: The Life and Teachings of Swami Brahmananda Saraswati, Shankaracharya of Jyotirmath (1941-53). Vol 3. Penzance, Cornwall: Premanand, 2009.
Mason, Paul. Guru Dev: Life and Teachings of Shankaracharya Swami Brahmananda Saraswati. Compiled by Paul Mason. 2012. Online [◩Link] http://www.paulmason.info/gurudev/gurudev.htm
Shriver, LB Trusty. The Sweet Teachings of the Blessed Sankaracarya Swami Brahmananda Saraswati.. Tr. and contr. Cynthia Ann Humes. Raleigh, NC: Lulu.com, 2013. —— Professor Humes supplied the annotations.
Tiwari, Rameswar, compiler, LB Trusty Shriver, ed, and Cynthia Ann Humes, ed. Rocks Are Melting: The Everyday Teachings of Swami Brahmananda Saraswati Fairfield, IA: Clear River Press, 2000. —— Scanned hard-copy (online) manuscript, with annotations. May be tried as a companion to Paul Mason's 108 Discourses of Guru Dev.


In addition, as mentioned in my first post, dedicated folks try to collect, preserve and have still more Guru Dev discourses translated. Funds would be good. Spreading the news too. A Yahoo group (see first post) is open so one may see what happens.

For more information and sermons by the gurudev of the TM movement, there are Paul Mason's pages.



--
T. Kinnes

[Michael Jackson [e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

You have no idea what I or anyone else knows about India and your trip or trips there make you no expert.Your time in TM seems to have given you a certain amount of TM similar hubris on your expertise - perhaps you can give us some John Hagelin style videos of your I'm certain I'm right cuz I been to new Delhi?

From: "Bhairitu ***@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2014 9:36 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Many Swami Brahmananda Saraswati discourses are waiting to be published

  Visiting India will give you an understanding of their culture which you cannot otherwise get.  And you MJ, make huge mistakes misunderstanding Indian culture.  What would you think if someone told you how some bakery good you make tastes if they never eaten it?


On 11/22/2014 06:20 PM, Michael Jackson ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote:



  Refreshing - we see that not everyone is impressed with "I went to India and so I'm an expert."

From: "Tormod Kinnes ***@gmail.com [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2014 5:51 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Many Swami Brahmananda Saraswati discourses are waiting to be published

  Dear Bhairatu
You write of your background for saying "TM is nothing but . . .". Good. But I cannot help noting that you still don't give real examples to document your stand. 
For example, you write: 

"I also like to refer to Sivananda's "Mind Its Mysteries and Control"  . . . to point out the method of meditation TM uses with the mantras is nothing new either as that work was first published in 1936."

I took the trouble to search through Sivananda's book, but if it contains anything specific about the TM system, I missed it.  The Smartist mantras and the main criteria for selecting from among them are not specified there, not as far as I could see after a quick search. Nor are Guru Dev's warning that OM (which is often found in Sivananda's writings) is not a proper mantra for householders.
You write

"mantras were published in the west before Maharishi". 

Yes, but a mass of syllables is not the TM system either. Many sounds and words of the language  - Long, Fine, and so on - may in fact be used as mantras.

Then you suggest something about seed sounds:

 "TM uses beej mantras because they don't need any empowerment." 

You also say that the TM initiation ceremony helps, and that other ways may help too. 

"The puja helps but Indian astrologers and ayurvedic practitioners hand them out to clients without any elaborate initiation."

In Guru Dev's discourses one finds a similar view in choosing the mantras. One gets a suitable mantra either by the guru or in some other way. Paul Mason has gathered, translated and published several books with ideas of Guru Dev. 

"where the beej mantras came from . . lost in antiquity and undoubtedly commonly in use even at the time of Shankara." 

This seems to be speculation.


"TM is really just "yoga lite". - 

I should say your proofs are lite too. Good, specific documentation is the thing called for.
ROUNDING OFF
There are some sources outside TM, sources that reveal the settings and transmission to Maharishi when he was trained by Guru Dev, benefited by his company, and was asked to bring swift and deep meditation to the masses. 
Elsa Dragemark presents Dr. Raj Varma:

 "Doctor Varma came to Guru Dev six months before Maharishi and knows more about Guru Dev and Maharishi than any other person I have met. [p. 240]

Dr. Raj Varma tells (in Elsa Dragemark. The Way to Maharishi's Himalayas.  Stockholm: E. Dragemark, 1972):
........................................

Maharishi loyally followed in his master's footsteps. . . .
Maharishi stayed with Guru Dev until the day his master left his body. It was in Calcutta, the 20th of May, 1953.
Guru Dev then called Maharishi and asked him to sit down. Guru Dev said:
— My time is up. It is time to leave, but still one thing remains. There was something else I should have done, but I did not have the time to carry it out. It is the usual custom that the work remaining for a guru is completed by his disciples. It is a tradition that the father's task is completed by his son and what now remains you shall complete by yourself.
— Master, Maharishi said, by your lotus feet, what remains? Your wish is my command. What do you wish, tell me, so that I can fulfil it. Guru Dev said:
— Look around. Many people are dejected. There is a lack of energy in their minds. Their minds are not strong enough. What I {p. 261] have taught you also contains the knowledge of the technique for the householder, which has been misinterpreted and forgotten during the centuries. This should now be perfected into a simple method suitable for everyone. Ask the people to sit and meditate after this method a few moments every morning and evening. Teach them to enjoy life. . . .

........................................
Accordingly, basic TM is meant to be a well simplified and streamlined mantra meditation for others than monks. It is mantra meditation, yes, but there is a system beneath also (it seems to be Smartism), and Guru Dev's teaching that OM is to be avoided among householders, but not necessarily by monks and nuns.
Thus, there are mantras you won't find in TM. I should say it is specialised mantra lore, with some elements in common with other mantra teachings, as you suggest, but with a few decisive characteristics of its own too.
If other mantra methods eventually come up with research documentation that is as good as the better TM documentation,  I won't say TM stands out a lot.

Till then . . . 
Regards,
-- 
T. Kinnes



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['Richard J. Williams' [e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

Post by Michael Jackson ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
You have no idea what I or anyone else knows about India and your trip
or trips there make you no expert.

In fact, we don't even know who you are. Go figure.

Post by Michael Jackson ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
Your time in TM seems to have given you a certain amount of TM similar
hubris on your expertise -

Apparently /Bhairitu/ was a teacher of TM and studied with a famous
tantric for a decade in order to become a tantric acharya. He has been
to India and can speak and read Hindi and Sanskrit. He and /emptybill/
are probably the foremost experts on tantric mantra shastra on FFL -
they make you look like a piker.

Post by Michael Jackson ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
perhaps you can give us some John Hagelin style videos of your I'm
certain I'm right cuz I been to new Delhi?

Non sequitur.

Piker:

/Someone who bakes bread on a small scale and in an amatuerish fashion. /

[Bhairitu [e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

Certainly we all pale when compared to your expertise on India,
Michael. BTW, when was I in Delhi and what did I see there?

Post by Michael Jackson ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
You have no idea what I or anyone else knows about India and your trip
or trips there make you no expert.Your time in TM seems to have given
you a certain amount of TM similar hubris on your expertise - perhaps
you can give us some John Hagelin style videos of your I'm certain I'm
right cuz I been to new Delhi?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Sent:* Saturday, November 22, 2014 9:36 PM
*Subject:* Re: [FairfieldLife] Many Swami Brahmananda Saraswati
discourses are waiting to be published
Visiting India will give you an understanding of their culture which
you cannot otherwise get. And you MJ, make huge mistakes
misunderstanding Indian culture. What would you think if someone told
you how some bakery good you make tastes if they never eaten it?

Post by Michael Jackson ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
Refreshing - we see that not everyone is impressed with "I went to
India and so I'm an expert."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Sent:* Saturday, November 22, 2014 5:51 PM
*Subject:* Re: [FairfieldLife] Many Swami Brahmananda Saraswati
discourses are waiting to be published
Dear Bhairatu
You write of your background for saying "TM is nothing but . . .".
Good. But I cannot help noting that you still don't give real
examples to document your stand.
"I also like to refer to Sivananda's "Mind Its Mysteries and
Control" . . . to point out the method of meditation TM uses
with the mantras is nothing new either as that work was first
published in 1936."
I took the trouble to search through Sivananda's book, but if it
contains anything specific about the TM system, I missed it.
The Smartist mantras and the main criteria for selecting from among
them are not specified there, not as far as I could see after a quick
search. Nor are Guru Dev's warning that OM (which is often found in
Sivananda's writings) is not a proper mantra for householders.
You write
"mantras were published in the west before Maharishi".
Yes, but a mass of syllables is not the TM system either. Many sounds
and words of the language - Long, Fine, and so on - may in fact be
used as mantras.
"TM uses beej mantras because they don't need any empowerment."
You also say that the TM initiation ceremony helps, and that other
ways may help too.
"The puja helps but Indian astrologers and ayurvedic
practitioners hand them out to clients without any elaborate
initiation."
In Guru Dev's discourses one finds a similar view in choosing the
mantras. One gets a suitable mantra either by the guru or in some
other way. Paul Mason has gathered, translated and published several
books with ideas of Guru Dev.
"where the beej mantras came from . . lost in antiquity and
undoubtedly commonly in use even at the time of Shankara."
This seems to be speculation.
"TM is really just "yoga lite". -
I should say your proofs are lite too. Good, specific documentation
is the thing called for.
ROUNDING OFF
There are some sources outside TM, sources that reveal the settings
and transmission to Maharishi when he was trained by Guru Dev,
benefited by his company, and was asked to bring swift and deep
meditation to the masses.
"Doctor Varma came to Guru Dev six months before Maharishi and
knows more about Guru Dev and Maharishi than any other person I
have met. [p. 240]
Dr. Raj Varma tells (in Elsa Dragemark. The Way to Maharishi's
........................................
Maharishi loyally followed in his master's footsteps. . . .
Maharishi stayed with Guru Dev until the day his master left his
body. It was in Calcutta, the 20th of May, 1953.
— My time is up. It is time to leave, but still one thing
remains. There was something else I should have done, but I did
not have the time to carry it out. It is the usual custom that
the work remaining for a guru is completed by his disciples. It
is a tradition that the father's task is completed by his son and
what now remains you shall complete by yourself.
— Master, Maharishi said, by your lotus feet, what remains? Your
wish is my command. What do you wish, tell me, so that I can
— Look around. Many people are dejected. There is a lack of
energy in their minds. Their minds are not strong enough. What I
{p. 261] have taught you also contains the knowledge of the
technique for the householder, which has been misinterpreted and
forgotten during the centuries. This should now be perfected into
a simple method suitable for everyone. Ask the people to sit and
meditate after this method a few moments every morning and
evening. Teach them to enjoy life. . . .
........................................
Accordingly, basic TM is meant to be a well simplified and
streamlined mantra meditation for others than monks. It is mantra
meditation, yes, but there is a system beneath also (it seems to be
Smartism), and Guru Dev's teaching that OM is to be avoided among
householders, but not necessarily by monks and nuns.
Thus, there are mantras you won't find in TM. I should say it is
specialised mantra lore, with some elements in common with other
mantra teachings, as you suggest, but with a few decisive
characteristics of its own too.
If other mantra methods eventually come up with research
documentation that is as good as the better TM documentation,
I won't say TM stands out a lot.
Till then . . .
Regards,
--
T. Kinnes

['Richard J. Williams' [e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

Post by Tormod Kinnes ***@gmail.com [FairfieldLife]
There are some sources outside TM, sources that reveal the settings
and transmission to Maharishi when he was trained by Guru Dev,
benefited by his company, and was asked to bring swift and deep
meditation to the masses.

/"Hariharananda Saraswati, (Karpatri Swami), the disciple of SBS, was
also the great expert of Shree Vidya and probably all the present day
experts in Varanasi have somehow or the other obtained Shree vidya from
him or his pupils."/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swami_Karpatri

Shree Vidya:

/"The details of the beliefs vary in different texts, but the general
principles are similar to those found in Kashmir Shaivism...The name
srividya is also used to refer to a specific mantra used in this
tradition having fifteen syllables."/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shri_Vidya

['Richard J. Williams' [e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

Post by Bhairitu ***@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]
I don't think anyone knows for sure where the beej mantras came from.
Those are lost in antiquity and undoubtedly commonly in use even at
the time of Shankara.

So let's review what we know about the TM bija mantras:

The Sankrit word "man" in Sanskrit means to think and "tra", means a
tool; "bija" in Sanskrit means a "seed". Bija mantras are seed sounds
used as a tools for meditation.

So, in TMer practice you just become aware of the seed syllable,
experienced just like any other thought; then you add a little
fertilizer; you just water the root and enjoy the fruit. It's not
complicated.

Are we agreed so far?

Now we can review the purpose of bija mantra:

There are several uses of bija mantras: for purification, acquisition,
propitiation, or in some cases, for protection.

But, according to Brooks, the most noble use of bija mantras is for
spontaneous meditation. Seed-syllables (bijasaras), are the purest form
of mantric sound - they do not make a request or praise a God - they are
natures purest expression of Being.

Now we can consider the history of bija mantra usage:

There are no bija mantras mentioned in the Rik Veda - bija mantras came
much later during the alchemical phase of the Nath Siddhas, after the
rise of Tantric Buddhism in the Indian Gupta period.

To sum up:

Meditation on a bija mantra seed syllables rather than words, transcends
such mundane considerations as semantic meaning. Accordingly, a
bija-only mantra meditation is not merely esoteric, but inherently superior.

However, "bija" mantras are not "meaningless" sounds; everything in the
cosmos has meaning. But, bija mantras are non-semantic sounds - they are
not words found in any standard Sanskrit lexicon. Bija mantras, by
definition, are esoteric.

Works cited:

*Auspicious Wisdon*
The Texts and Traditions of Srividya Sakta Tantrism in South India
by Douglas Renfrew Brooks
SUNY, 1992
p.95

On the origin of the TM bija mantras:

/"Bija mantras issued by TM are ''Sri Vidya'' bija mantras. To be fair,
I won't go into what they are, but if one listens to all TM mantras,
except for 2, they are 2 or 3 syllable, and this is a very important
component of the //
//technique..." /

From: Billy Smith
Subject: Re: Guru Dev and "Sri Vidya"
Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental
Date: April 22, 2003
http://tinyurl.com/ye8my2
/
//"You are getting "warmer" when it comes to understanding TM's origins
with your posts regarding the Shankaracharya tradition and its practice
of Srividya..." /

From: James Duffy
Subject: Re: TM: Siva Sutra
Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental, alt.yoga, alt.meditation
Date: September 21, 2003
http://tinyurl.com/yjwa2yr

['Richard J. Williams' [e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

Post by ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
You get a horde of mantras with variants, that is true, but not the
Advaitic Smartist system that TM traces its first mantras to,

SBS was initiated into the Shankaracharya tradition by his guru, Swami
Brahmananda Saraswati of the Upper Kashi. It is incumbent on all
Saraswati Swamis to meditate at least twice every day. Everyone already
knows this.

Brahmananda Saraswati practiced samaya marga of Sri Vidya, according to
his biographer. Sri Vidya is a path of internal puja to the deity of the
Sri Yantra. There are fifteen bija mantras enumerated in the
Saundalahari composed by the Adi Shankara.

All the Shankaracharya Advaita sannyasin worship Shakti, this is a fact.
According to Shankara's Soundaryalahari, all saanyasins meditate on the
bija mantra of Saraswati. That's why SBS gave out the Saraswati bija
mantra - for people to meditate on.

According to Swami Rama, SBS used to meditate just like TMers do today -
a meditation that is transcendental. According to Duffy:

/"This too, is my understanding of Guru Dev's practice as well. ...via
mantras and nyasas. I would add that the bija mantras used are the same
as the mantras used in TM..."/

Works cited:

/*The swami is said to have been one of those "rare siddhas
(accomplished ones) who had the knowledge of Sri Vidya"/

Rama, Swami (1999) Himalayan Institute, *Living With the Himalayan
Masters*, page 247

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmananda_Saraswati

Subject: Re: Guru Dev and "Sri Vidya"
From: James Duffy
Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental
Date: 2003-04-21 12:17:54 PST

Read more:
http://www.rwilliams.us/archives/srividya.htm

Swami Brahmananda Sarasvati: Srividya siddha; highly respected
Shankaracharya of Jyotirmya pitha, Shankara Matha, Badrinath:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shankaracharya

/"His disciples included Swami Shantanand Saraswati, Transcendental
Meditation founder Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, Swami Swaruananda Saraswati
and Swami Karpatri. Five months before his death in 1953, he made a will
naming his disciple, Swami Shantanand Saraswati as his successor."/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmananda_Saraswati

[Tormod Kinnes [e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

nablusoss1008,

You can't take that guy serious, noone in his right mind read books by Paul

Post by nablusoss1008
Mason. He has a simple agenda; to make money.

He, he, he. Take a hint from me: A fool says, "I won't read great books if
they are translated and published."

Maharishi has also been edited, translated, and published by MUM and
others, and not for free. The same goes for so many others.

By the way, I have compared three translations of Guru Dev's 108
discourses. In my view Paul Mason's is the best, translationwise, but LB
Shriver's has good annotations to go for it. And there is one more
translation from India, *for free* on Paul Mason's Guru Dev page.

When one has rid the mind of mean dumbness one is better qualified to study
texts and compare. "First study, then speak" should hardly be ignored.

[nablusoss1008]

Take a hint from me: only a fool can't see that Masons agenda goes further than making Money.

---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :



nablusoss1008,



You can't take that guy serious, noone in his right mind read books by Paul Mason. He has a simple agenda; to make money.

He, he, he. Take a hint from me: A fool says, "I won't read great books if they are translated and published."


Maharishi has also been edited, translated, and published by MUM and others, and not for free. The same goes for so many others.


By the way, I have compared three translations of Guru Dev's 108 discourses. In my view Paul Mason's is the best, translationwise, but LB Shriver's has good annotations to go for it. And there is one more translation from India, for free on Paul Mason's Guru Dev page.


When one has rid the mind of mean dumbness one is better qualified to study texts and compare. "First study, then speak" should hardly be ignored.


--
T. Kinnes


--
Tormod Kinnes