Discussion:
Most Absurd Rumor
(too old to reply)
Michael Jackson mjackson74@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-17 16:11:29 UTC
Permalink
I think I asked this once a long time ago, but I am posting this again if so:
What was the most absurd TM rumor you ever heard?

This would be something that was not part of the official TM cannon, nor any of the majorly accepted ones (like Marshy's enlightened, TM brings enlightenment or yogic flying brings world peace)
I am talking about the boundless rumors we all heard on courses and in TM facilities and from TM old timers.
Mine would I think have to be the idea that having animals around when you are meditating drains your energy. That one supposedly came from Marshy himself but who knows.
Other than that it would be Claire Baxter's classic never meditate with your hair wet because the stress you release comes out of your crown chakra, and if your hair is wet the stress slides down your hair and goes into your lower spine.

I include that one second, just because I only heard it from that one person and the animal energy drain was one I heard a lot from lots of different people.

How bout yours? Most absurd TM rumor?
Michael Jackson mjackson74@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-17 16:11:29 UTC
Permalink
I think I asked this once a long time ago, but I am posting this again if so:
What was the most absurd TM rumor you ever heard?

This would be something that was not part of the official TM cannon, nor any of the majorly accepted ones (like Marshy's enlightened, TM brings enlightenment or yogic flying brings world peace)
I am talking about the boundless rumors we all heard on courses and in TM facilities and from TM old timers.
Mine would I think have to be the idea that having animals around when you are meditating drains your energy. That one supposedly came from Marshy himself but who knows.
Other than that it would be Claire Baxter's classic never meditate with your hair wet because the stress you release comes out of your crown chakra, and if your hair is wet the stress slides down your hair and goes into your lower spine.

I include that one second, just because I only heard it from that one person and the animal energy drain was one I heard a lot from lots of different people.

How bout yours? Most absurd TM rumor?
salyavin808
2014-11-17 17:10:19 UTC
Permalink
Too many to mention, are you trying to crash the internet?

Here's a fave: Marshy could speak any language he wanted to. Apparently to learn them he would wait until he arrived in a country, and then - as he's getting off the plane - he'd be heard mumbling a few things and by the time he got to passport control he'd be fluent!





---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

I think I asked this once a long time ago, but I am posting this again if so:


What was the most absurd TM rumor you ever heard?



This would be something that was not part of the official TM cannon, nor any of the majorly accepted ones (like Marshy's enlightened, TM brings enlightenment or yogic flying brings world peace)


I am talking about the boundless rumors we all heard on courses and in TM facilities and from TM old timers.


Mine would I think have to be the idea that having animals around when you are meditating drains your energy. That one supposedly came from Marshy himself but who knows.


Other than that it would be Claire Baxter's classic never meditate with your hair wet because the stress you release comes out of your crown chakra, and if your hair is wet the stress slides down your hair and goes into your lower spine.



I include that one second, just because I only heard it from that one person and the animal energy drain was one I heard a lot from lots of different people.



How bout yours? Most absurd TM rumor?
Michael Jackson mjackson74@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-17 17:39:22 UTC
Permalink
Well so far that takes the cake - what nonsense! I have never heard that one either.

From: salyavin808 <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2014 12:10 PM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Most Absurd Rumor

 
Too many to mention, are you trying to crash the internet?
Here's a fave: Marshy could speak any language he wanted to. Apparently to learn them he would wait until he arrived in a country, and then - as he's getting off the plane - he'd be heard mumbling a few things and by the time he got to passport control he'd be fluent!





---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

I think I asked this once a long time ago, but I am posting this again if so:
What was the most absurd TM rumor you ever heard?

This would be something that was not part of the official TM cannon, nor any of the majorly accepted ones (like Marshy's enlightened, TM brings enlightenment or yogic flying brings world peace)
I am talking about the boundless rumors we all heard on courses and in TM facilities and from TM old timers.
Mine would I think have to be the idea that having animals around when you are meditating drains your energy. That one supposedly came from Marshy himself but who knows.
Other than that it would be Claire Baxter's classic never meditate with your hair wet because the stress you release comes out of your crown chakra, and if your hair is wet the stress slides down your hair and goes into your lower spine.

I include that one second, just because I only heard it from that one person and the animal energy drain was one I heard a lot from lots of different people.

How bout yours? Most absurd TM rumor?
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steve.sundur@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-18 04:40:53 UTC
Permalink
Kinda painful to see you eating this stuff up.

Like, I think you might be one step away from creating a new online account, and posting your own ridiculous rumors that you can then be outraged about.


What do you think?


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

Well so far that takes the cake - what nonsense! I have never heard that one either.


From: salyavin808 <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2014 12:10 PM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Most Absurd Rumor





Too many to mention, are you trying to crash the internet?

Here's a fave: Marshy could speak any language he wanted to. Apparently to learn them he would wait until he arrived in a country, and then - as he's getting off the plane - he'd be heard mumbling a few things and by the time he got to passport control he'd be fluent!








---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

I think I asked this once a long time ago, but I am posting this again if so:


What was the most absurd TM rumor you ever heard?



This would be something that was not part of the official TM cannon, nor any of the majorly accepted ones (like Marshy's enlightened, TM brings enlightenment or yogic flying brings world peace)


I am talking about the boundless rumors we all heard on courses and in TM facilities and from TM old timers.


Mine would I think have to be the idea that having animals around when you are meditating drains your energy. That one supposedly came from Marshy himself but who knows.


Other than that it would be Claire Baxter's classic never meditate with your hair wet because the stress you release comes out of your crown chakra, and if your hair is wet the stress slides down your hair and goes into your lower spine.



I include that one second, just because I only heard it from that one person and the animal energy drain was one I heard a lot from lots of different people.



How bout yours? Most absurd TM rumor?
Mike Dixon mdixon.6569@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-17 22:28:43 UTC
Permalink
 Maharishi got his deer skin from a deer that died at his feet. Satyanand told me, "they kill'em. we buy'em".
From: salyavin808 <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2014 9:10 AM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Most Absurd Rumor

 
Too many to mention, are you trying to crash the internet?
Here's a fave: Marshy could speak any language he wanted to. Apparently to learn them he would wait until he arrived in a country, and then - as he's getting off the plane - he'd be heard mumbling a few things and by the time he got to passport control he'd be fluent!



---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

I think I asked this once a long time ago, but I am posting this again if so:
What was the most absurd TM rumor you ever heard?

This would be something that was not part of the official TM cannon, nor any of the majorly accepted ones (like Marshy's enlightened, TM brings enlightenment or yogic flying brings world peace)
I am talking about the boundless rumors we all heard on courses and in TM facilities and from TM old timers.
Mine would I think have to be the idea that having animals around when you are meditating drains your energy. That one supposedly came from Marshy himself but who knows.
Other than that it would be Claire Baxter's classic never meditate with your hair wet because the stress you release comes out of your crown chakra, and if your hair is wet the stress slides down your hair and goes into your lower spine.

I include that one second, just because I only heard it from that one person and the animal energy drain was one I heard a lot from lots of different people.

How bout yours? Most absurd TM rumor?
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'Richard J. Williams' punditster@gmail.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-17 23:51:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Jackson ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
What was the most absurd TM rumor you ever heard?
/The most absurd rumor I ever heard was on an internet discussion group.

The rumor posted claimed that the Maharishi had murdered his master SBS,
by poisoning his food in a conspiracy with the Jyotirmath Ashram cook.

The motive apparently was for the Mahesh Yogi to get SBS's special ring
and ruby-encrusted yantra. And, with a forged will, the cook would get
the Shankaracharya highchair at the Upper Kashi./

/As far as rumors go, it is going to be difficult to top this one./
Post by Michael Jackson ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
This would be something that was not part of the official TM cannon,
nor any of the majorly accepted ones (like Marshy's enlightened, TM
brings enlightenment or yogic flying brings world peace)
I am talking about the boundless rumors we all heard on courses and in
TM facilities and from TM old timers.
Mine would I think have to be the idea that having animals around when
you are meditating drains your energy. That one supposedly came from
Marshy himself but who knows.
Other than that it would be Claire Baxter's classic never meditate
with your hair wet because the stress you release comes out of your
crown chakra, and if your hair is wet the stress slides down your hair
and goes into your lower spine.
I include that one second, just because I only heard it from that one
person and the animal energy drain was one I heard a lot from lots of
different people.
How bout yours? Most absurd TM rumor?
nablusoss1008
2014-11-18 09:59:25 UTC
Permalink
Indeed. And it was put forward by the infamous Buddhist that used to post here, Vaj.

---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

On 11/17/2014 10:11 AM, Michael Jackson wrote:
I think I asked this once a long time ago, but I am posting this again if so:


What was the most absurd TM rumor you ever heard?
The most absurd rumor I ever heard was on an internet discussion group.

The rumor posted claimed that the Maharishi had murdered his master SBS, by poisoning his food in a conspiracy with the Jyotirmath Ashram cook.

The motive apparently was for the Mahesh Yogi to get SBS's special ring and ruby-encrusted yantra. And, with a forged will, the cook would get the Shankaracharya highchair at the Upper Kashi.

As far as rumors go, it is going to be difficult to top this one.
This would be something that was not part of the official TM cannon, nor any of the majorly accepted ones (like Marshy's enlightened, TM brings enlightenment or yogic flying brings world peace)


I am talking about the boundless rumors we all heard on courses and in TM facilities and from TM old timers.


Mine would I think have to be the idea that having animals around when you are meditating drains your energy. That one supposedly came from Marshy himself but who knows.


Other than that it would be Claire Baxter's classic never meditate with your hair wet because the stress you release comes out of your crown chakra, and if your hair is wet the stress slides down your hair and goes into your lower spine.



I include that one second, just because I only heard it from that one person and the animal energy drain was one I heard a lot from lots of different people.



How bout yours? Most absurd TM rumor?
salyavin808
2014-11-18 10:39:08 UTC
Permalink
---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@yahoogroups.com> wrote :


Indeed. And it was put forward by the infamous Buddhist that used to post here, Vaj.


Of course it was rubbish but it comes from the same sort of place that the other rumours have, the place where Marshy has to be a superman, obviously it's more inspiring if your guru has amazing powers like walking on water. That's why they invent these stories, it makes the decision to follow him to be a more important one than just choosing a type of meditation. Divine assurance perhaps.


But I don't think Vaj invented it, it was part of Earl Kaplan's letter and he got it from whatever source in India he spoke to. I felt a bit sorry for him because he got duped by one cult and ran straight into the arms of another. I hope he's got some smarts at last and realised there is no authority but yourself.




---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

On 11/17/2014 10:11 AM, Michael Jackson wrote:
I think I asked this once a long time ago, but I am posting this again if so:


What was the most absurd TM rumor you ever heard?
The most absurd rumor I ever heard was on an internet discussion group.

The rumor posted claimed that the Maharishi had murdered his master SBS, by poisoning his food in a conspiracy with the Jyotirmath Ashram cook.

The motive apparently was for the Mahesh Yogi to get SBS's special ring and ruby-encrusted yantra. And, with a forged will, the cook would get the Shankaracharya highchair at the Upper Kashi.

As far as rumors go, it is going to be difficult to top this one.
This would be something that was not part of the official TM cannon, nor any of the majorly accepted ones (like Marshy's enlightened, TM brings enlightenment or yogic flying brings world peace)


I am talking about the boundless rumors we all heard on courses and in TM facilities and from TM old timers.


Mine would I think have to be the idea that having animals around when you are meditating drains your energy. That one supposedly came from Marshy himself but who knows.


Other than that it would be Claire Baxter's classic never meditate with your hair wet because the stress you release comes out of your crown chakra, and if your hair is wet the stress slides down your hair and goes into your lower spine.



I include that one second, just because I only heard it from that one person and the animal energy drain was one I heard a lot from lots of different people.



How bout yours? Most absurd TM rumor?
Michael Jackson mjackson74@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-18 12:03:39 UTC
Permalink
Made even more interesting in light of the assertion of Deepak Chopra that Marshy himself was poisoned some years ago, with Deepak of course cast in the role of savior, or co-savior perhaps

From: salyavin808 <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 5:39 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

 


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@yahoogroups.com> wrote :


Indeed. And it was put forward by the infamous Buddhist that used to post here, Vaj.
Of course it was rubbish but it comes from the same sort of place that the other rumours have, the place where Marshy has to be a superman, obviously it's more inspiring if your guru has amazing powers like walking on water. That's why they invent these stories, it makes the decision to follow him to be a more important one than just choosing a type of meditation. Divine assurance perhaps.
But I don't think Vaj invented it, it was part of Earl Kaplan's letter and he got it from whatever source in India he spoke to. I felt a bit sorry for him because he got duped by one cult and ran straight into the arms of another. I hope he's got some smarts at last and realised there is no authority but yourself.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

On 11/17/2014 10:11 AM, Michael Jacksonwrote:
 Ithink I asked this once a long time ago, but I amposting this again if so:
Whatwas the most absurd TM rumor you ever heard?
The most absurd rumor I ever heard was on aninternet discussion group.

The rumor posted claimed that the Maharishi had murdered hismaster SBS, by poisoning his food in a conspiracy with theJyotirmath Ashram cook.

The motive apparently was for the Mahesh Yogi to get SBS'sspecial ring and ruby-encrusted yantra. And, with a forged will,the cook would get the Shankaracharya highchair at the UpperKashi.

As far as rumors go, it is going to bedifficult to top this one.
Thiswould be something that was not part of the official TMcannon, nor any of the majorly accepted ones (likeMarshy's enlightened, TM brings enlightenment or yogicflying brings world peace)
I amtalking about the boundless rumors we all heard oncourses and in TM facilities and from TM old timers.
Minewould I think have to be the idea that having animalsaround when you are meditating drains your energy. Thatone supposedly came from Marshy himself but who knows.
Otherthan that it would be Claire Baxter's classic nevermeditate with your hair wet because the stress yourelease comes out of your crown chakra, and if your hairis wet the stress slides down your hair and goes intoyour lower spine.

Iinclude that one second, just because I only heard itfrom that one person and the animal energy drain was oneI heard a lot from lots of different people.

Howbout yours? Most absurd TM rumor?

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TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-18 12:26:38 UTC
Permalink
It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and say, "This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of practicing TM."

Think of it...over 50 years with a single "success story" they're willing to present in public, and they still claim to be "the fastest path."
Share Long sharelong60@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-18 12:38:31 UTC
Permalink
turq, if you are genuinely interested in such a path, the Oneness group headed by Bhagavan and Amma claim lots of enlightened followers, even give them certificates. This is the age in which we live, a path for every kind of seeker.

From: "TurquoiseBee ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 6:26 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

  It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and say, "This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of practicing TM."

Think of it...over 50 years with a single "success story" they're willing to present in public, and they still claim to be "the fastest path."


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Michael Jackson mjackson74@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-18 13:00:05 UTC
Permalink
Well this is one I haven't heard before - certificates of enlightenment??? What bs.

From: "Share Long ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 7:38 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

  turq, if you are genuinely interested in such a path, the Oneness group headed by Bhagavan and Amma claim lots of enlightened followers, even give them certificates. This is the age in which we live, a path for every kind of seeker.



From: "TurquoiseBee ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 6:26 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

  It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and say, "This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of practicing TM."

Think of it...over 50 years with a single "success story" they're willing to present in public, and they still claim to be "the fastest path."




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Share Long sharelong60@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-18 13:09:07 UTC
Permalink
MJ, surely some qigong and kung fu programs offer certificates of mastery for the various levels. How is that different?

From: "Michael Jackson ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 7:00 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

  Well this is one I haven't heard before - certificates of enlightenment??? What bs.



From: "Share Long ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 7:38 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

  turq, if you are genuinely interested in such a path, the Oneness group headed by Bhagavan and Amma claim lots of enlightened followers, even give them certificates. This is the age in which we live, a path for every kind of seeker.



From: "TurquoiseBee ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 6:26 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

  It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and say, "This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of practicing TM."

Think of it...over 50 years with a single "success story" they're willing to present in public, and they still claim to be "the fastest path."






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Michael Jackson mjackson74@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-18 14:14:49 UTC
Permalink
Good God woman, if you can seriously ask that question you need serious intervention.
From: "Share Long ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 8:09 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

  MJ, surely some qigong and kung fu programs offer certificates of mastery for the various levels. How is that different?



From: "Michael Jackson ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 7:00 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

  Well this is one I haven't heard before - certificates of enlightenment??? What bs.



From: "Share Long ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 7:38 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

  turq, if you are genuinely interested in such a path, the Oneness group headed by Bhagavan and Amma claim lots of enlightened followers, even give them certificates. This is the age in which we live, a path for every kind of seeker.



From: "TurquoiseBee ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 6:26 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

  It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and say, "This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of practicing TM."

Think of it...over 50 years with a single "success story" they're willing to present in public, and they still claim to be "the fastest path."








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salyavin808
2014-11-18 14:35:51 UTC
Permalink
---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

MJ, surely some qigong and kung fu programs offer certificates of mastery for the various levels. How is that different?


I always thought that I should get a black belt for my yogic flying. I was proper good at it. Invincible defence from the unified field 3rd Dan, that was me. Sigh.



From: "Michael Jackson ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 7:00 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor



Well this is one I haven't heard before - certificates of enlightenment??? What bs.






From: "Share Long ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 7:38 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor



turq, if you are genuinely interested in such a path, the Oneness group headed by Bhagavan and Amma claim lots of enlightened followers, even give them certificates. This is the age in which we live, a path for every kind of seeker.






From: "TurquoiseBee ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 6:26 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor



It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and say, "This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of practicing TM."



Think of it...over 50 years with a single "success story" they're willing to present in public, and they still claim to be "the fastest path."
Share Long sharelong60@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-18 15:48:52 UTC
Permalink
Great, salyavin! But did you ENJOY?

From: salyavin808 <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 8:35 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

 


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

MJ, surely some qigong and kung fu programs offer certificates of mastery for the various levels. How is that different?

I always thought that I should get a black belt for my yogic flying. I was proper good at it. Invincible defence from the unified field 3rd Dan, that was me. Sigh.

From: "Michael Jackson ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 7:00 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

 Well this is one I haven't heard before - certificates of enlightenment??? What bs.



From: "Share Long ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 7:38 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

 turq, if you are genuinely interested in such a path, the Oneness group headed by Bhagavan and Amma claim lots of enlightened followers, even give them certificates. This is the age in which we live, a path for every kind of seeker.



From: "TurquoiseBee ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 6:26 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

 It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and say, "This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of practicing TM."

Think of it...over 50 years with a single "success story" they're willing to present in public, and they still claim to be "the fastest path."








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salyavin808
2014-11-18 16:58:44 UTC
Permalink
---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

Great, Salyavin! But did you ENJOY?


At first I liked the TMSP but after a while it was more of a drag than a pleasure. Like TM I think most of the pleasure derived are from the effects are you are told are happening but aren't really. When you forget the hyperbole there isn't that much to TM (but I still enjoy it) I don't remember there being much of anything to the TMSP at all, some nice experiences occasionally but mostly the opposite.


And then I resented the amount of time it took before finally giving up, why it took so long for me to quit is a sign of the teaching methods effectiveness, being involved in cultish behaviour like that can make it hard to look honestly at what you are doing. But one day, I looked around the flying room and concluded the whole thing was bollocks and walked out.


I have been much happier ever since. Others I know still like it, go figure.


From: salyavin808 <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 8:35 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor






---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

MJ, surely some qigong and kung fu programs offer certificates of mastery for the various levels. How is that different?


I always thought that I should get a black belt for my yogic flying. I was proper good at it. Invincible defence from the unified field 3rd Dan, that was me. Sigh.



From: "Michael Jackson ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 7:00 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor



Well this is one I haven't heard before - certificates of enlightenment??? What bs.






From: "Share Long ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 7:38 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor



turq, if you are genuinely interested in such a path, the Oneness group headed by Bhagavan and Amma claim lots of enlightened followers, even give them certificates. This is the age in which we live, a path for every kind of seeker.






From: "TurquoiseBee ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 6:26 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor



It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and say, "This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of practicing TM."



Think of it...over 50 years with a single "success story" they're willing to present in public, and they still claim to be "the fastest path."
Michael Jackson mjackson74@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-18 17:14:36 UTC
Permalink
Do your still TMSP practicing friends have tea with you, or do they avoid you so as to not catch the OTP disease?

From: salyavin808 <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 11:58 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

 


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

Great, Salyavin! But did you ENJOY?
At first I liked the TMSP but after a while it was more of a drag than a pleasure. Like TM I think most of the pleasure derived are from the effects are you are told are happening but aren't really. When you forget the hyperbole there isn't that much to TM (but I still enjoy it) I don't remember there being much of anything to the TMSP at all, some nice experiences occasionally but mostly the opposite.
And then I resented the amount of time it took before finally giving up, why it took so long for me to quit is a sign of the teaching methods effectiveness, being involved in cultish behaviour like that can make it hard to look honestly at what you are doing. But one day, I looked around the flying room and concluded the whole thing was bollocks and walked out. 
I have been much happier ever since. Others I know still like it, go figure.

From: salyavin808 <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 8:35 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

 


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

MJ, surely some qigong and kung fu programs offer certificates of mastery for the various levels. How is that different?

I always thought that I should get a black belt for my yogic flying. I was proper good at it. Invincible defence from the unified field 3rd Dan, that was me. Sigh.

From: "Michael Jackson ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 7:00 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

 Well this is one I haven't heard before - certificates of enlightenment??? What bs.



From: "Share Long ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 7:38 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

 turq, if you are genuinely interested in such a path, the Oneness group headed by Bhagavan and Amma claim lots of enlightened followers, even give them certificates. This is the age in which we live, a path for every kind of seeker.



From: "TurquoiseBee ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 6:26 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

 It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and say, "This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of practicing TM."

Think of it...over 50 years with a single "success story" they're willing to present in public, and they still claim to be "the fastest path."










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salyavin808
2014-11-18 17:35:02 UTC
Permalink
---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

Do your still TMSP practicing friends have tea with you, or do they avoid you so as to not catch the OTP disease?


No one even mentions it, we don't talk much about movement things, except to find out what's going on with peace palaces and gossip etc. Or maybe they don't know! I haven't run into any real TBs recently but a few did tell me that I'll always be classed as a siddha even if I'm not doing it at the moment.
From: salyavin808 <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 11:58 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor






---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

Great, Salyavin! But did you ENJOY?


At first I liked the TMSP but after a while it was more of a drag than a pleasure. Like TM I think most of the pleasure derived are from the effects are you are told are happening but aren't really. When you forget the hyperbole there isn't that much to TM (but I still enjoy it) I don't remember there being much of anything to the TMSP at all, some nice experiences occasionally but mostly the opposite.


And then I resented the amount of time it took before finally giving up, why it took so long for me to quit is a sign of the teaching methods effectiveness, being involved in cultish behaviour like that can make it hard to look honestly at what you are doing. But one day, I looked around the flying room and concluded the whole thing was bollocks and walked out.


I have been much happier ever since. Others I know still like it, go figure.


From: salyavin808 <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 8:35 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor






---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

MJ, surely some qigong and kung fu programs offer certificates of mastery for the various levels. How is that different?


I always thought that I should get a black belt for my yogic flying. I was proper good at it. Invincible defence from the unified field 3rd Dan, that was me. Sigh.



From: "Michael Jackson ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 7:00 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor



Well this is one I haven't heard before - certificates of enlightenment??? What bs.






From: "Share Long ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 7:38 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor



turq, if you are genuinely interested in such a path, the Oneness group headed by Bhagavan and Amma claim lots of enlightened followers, even give them certificates. This is the age in which we live, a path for every kind of seeker.






From: "TurquoiseBee ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 6:26 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor



It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and say, "This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of practicing TM."



Think of it...over 50 years with a single "success story" they're willing to present in public, and they still claim to be "the fastest path."
'Richard J. Williams' punditster@gmail.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-18 18:57:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Share Long ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
MJ, surely some qigong and kung fu programs offer certificates of
mastery for the various levels. How is that different?
/It's not any different, Share - it's just the cognitive dissonance with
MJ.

In fact, in Qigong they give out belts of various colors to signify
attainment. Everyone already knows that.

All schools have certificates - the only thing in doubt is if MJ ever
got one in anything, even High School. Go figure./
Post by Share Long ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Sent:* Tuesday, November 18, 2014 7:00 AM
*Subject:* Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor
Well this is one I haven't heard before - certificates of
enlightenment??? What bs.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Sent:* Tuesday, November 18, 2014 7:38 AM
*Subject:* Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor
turq, if you are genuinely interested in such a path, the Oneness
group headed by Bhagavan and Amma claim lots of enlightened followers,
even give them certificates. This is the age in which we live, a path
for every kind of seeker.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Sent:* Tuesday, November 18, 2014 6:26 AM
*Subject:* Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor
*/It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've
always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment
on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has
been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and say,
"This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of
practicing TM."
/*
*/
/*
*/Think of it...over 50 years with a single "success story" they're
willing to present in public, and they still claim to be "the fastest
path."
/*
*/
/*
steve.sundur@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-18 13:17:22 UTC
Permalink
uh, you might relate more to a "certificate of bs". might fit your posting style a little better!

lovin' ya, though!


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

Well this is one I haven't heard before - certificates of enlightenment??? What bs.



From: "Share Long ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 7:38 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor



turq, if you are genuinely interested in such a path, the Oneness group headed by Bhagavan and Amma claim lots of enlightened followers, even give them certificates. This is the age in which we live, a path for every kind of seeker.






From: "TurquoiseBee ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 6:26 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor



It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and say, "This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of practicing TM."



Think of it...over 50 years with a single "success story" they're willing to present in public, and they still claim to be "the fastest path."
'Richard J. Williams' punditster@gmail.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-18 20:10:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
uh, you might relate more to a "certificate of bs". might fit your
posting style a little better!
/Or, a GED certificate.
/>
Post by ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
lovin' ya, though!
Well this is one I haven't heard before - certificates of
enlightenment??? What bs.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Sent:* Tuesday, November 18, 2014 7:38 AM
*Subject:* Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor
turq, if you are genuinely interested in such a path, the Oneness
group headed by Bhagavan and Amma claim lots of enlightened followers,
even give them certificates. This is the age in which we live, a path
for every kind of seeker.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Sent:* Tuesday, November 18, 2014 6:26 AM
*Subject:* Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor
*/It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've
always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment
on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has
been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and say,
"This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of
practicing TM."
/*
*/
/*
*/Think of it...over 50 years with a single "success story" they're
willing to present in public, and they still claim to be "the fastest
path."
/*
*/
/*
steve.sundur@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-19 00:59:55 UTC
Permalink
Well, there is no one, not on this site, or probably anywhere in the world who thinks more about MMY, and the TMO, than our very own, Michael P. Jackson.

Give up for the MJ, ya hear!


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

On 11/18/2014 7:17 AM, steve.sundur wrote:
uh, you might relate more to a "certificate of bs". might fit your posting style a little better!
Or, a GED certificate.
lovin' ya, though!


---In ***@yahoogroups.com mailto:***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> mailto:***@... wrote :

Well this is one I haven't heard before - certificates of enlightenment??? What bs.



From: "Share Long ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com> mailto:***@yahoogroups.com
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" mailto:***@yahoogroups.com <***@yahoogroups.com> mailto:***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 7:38 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor


turq, if you are genuinely interested in such a path, the Oneness group headed by Bhagavan and Amma claim lots of enlightened followers, even give them certificates. This is the age in which we live, a path for every kind of seeker.






From: "TurquoiseBee ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com> mailto:***@yahoogroups.com
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" mailto:***@yahoogroups.com <***@yahoogroups.com> mailto:***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 6:26 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor


It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and say, "This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of practicing TM."



Think of it...over 50 years with a single "success story" they're willing to present in public, and they still claim to be "the fastest path."
Duveyoung
2014-11-19 01:23:06 UTC
Permalink
Somebody's gotta be the drummer on this ship of 'oars.
Michael Jackson mjackson74@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-18 13:07:33 UTC
Permalink
Now you know that's not true - Marshy said Andy Rhymer and Robin Carlsen were enlightened! There, proof positive that enlightenment does not carry decent behavior with it, or more likely proof positive that Marshy was a liar and huckster who would occasionally get caught in his own web of lies. What do you do when some guy stands up in a group and talks experiences that are exactly what the guru said constitutes enlightenment? You say "Oh, yeah, you are enlightened! See proof that my meditation works!" then you bank on the fact that these guys will fade away and people will forget about it. You don't entertain the idea they may be child molesters of whacked out cult leaders to be.

As to Share's assertion that certain groups claim many "enlightened" members, if one takes Marshy's definition especially of enlightenment, there should be obvious signs of "many enlightened" people from the absolute support of nature these people would be getting, plus the waves of amazing vibes they should be giving off - in short, it is a big fat fantasy on the part of the certificate holders and a blatant and rather crude action on the part of the gurus to maintain the gravy train.

From: "TurquoiseBee ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 7:26 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

  It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and say, "This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of practicing TM."

Think of it...over 50 years with a single "success story" they're willing to present in public, and they still claim to be "the fastest path."


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steve.sundur@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-18 13:12:06 UTC
Permalink
Actually, Barry, you've discounted Maharishi's progress on the spiritual path as someone who had achieved nothing. At the same time you've discussed your experiences practicing his technique, which happen to coincide with the signposts of higher consciousness outlined by M.

I always had a feeling that it would emerge that you would in some way appoint yourself as being the "One".


Maybe consider changing your handle to "Neo turq", or "Neo Barry"


No need to be modest about it.


Come out of the closet, boy.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and say, "This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of practicing TM."



Think of it...over 50 years with a single "success story" they're willing to present in public, and they still claim to be "the fastest path."
fleetwood_macncheese@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-18 16:47:25 UTC
Permalink
Barry is trolling. I have never heard anyone in the TM Org, including my teacher, say that TM was the fastest way to enlightenment. It is not on any tapes, or in any lectures, or books. I challenge Barry to find even one recorded instance of this phrase, used by anyone in the TMO. He is more interested in tooting his limp horn, than any sort of reality based conversation. As usual.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

Actually, Barry, you've discounted Maharishi's progress on the spiritual path as someone who had achieved nothing. At the same time you've discussed your experiences practicing his technique, which happen to coincide with the signposts of higher consciousness outlined by M.

I always had a feeling that it would emerge that you would in some way appoint yourself as being the "One".


Maybe consider changing your handle to "Neo turq", or "Neo Barry"


No need to be modest about it.


Come out of the closet, boy.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and say, "This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of practicing TM."



Think of it...over 50 years with a single "success story" they're willing to present in public, and they still claim to be "the fastest path."
salyavin808
2014-11-18 17:04:31 UTC
Permalink
---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

Barry is trolling. I have never heard anyone in the TM Org, including my teacher, say that TM was the fastest way to enlightenment. It is not on any tapes, or in any lectures, or books. I challenge Barry to find even one recorded instance of this phrase, used by anyone in the TMO. He is more interested in tooting his limp horn, than any sort of reality based conversation. As usual.


Maybe you just met some more realistic teachers, I heard many say that "TM isn't the only path but it's the fastest one" And that the siddhi's were like "getting into the fast lane and putting your foot down". And I would swear that I heard Maharishi say it all too but can't give any context like whether it was from an old tape or from the Marshy channel.


But where do you suppose the teachers got it from if not from the reesh?


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

Actually, Barry, you've discounted Maharishi's progress on the spiritual path as someone who had achieved nothing. At the same time you've discussed your experiences practicing his technique, which happen to coincide with the signposts of higher consciousness outlined by M.

I always had a feeling that it would emerge that you would in some way appoint yourself as being the "One".


Maybe consider changing your handle to "Neo turq", or "Neo Barry"


No need to be modest about it.


Come out of the closet, boy.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and say, "This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of practicing TM."



Think of it...over 50 years with a single "success story" they're willing to present in public, and they still claim to be "the fastest path."
fleetwood_macncheese@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-18 21:52:47 UTC
Permalink
I don't know - When I was around the teachers, it was for a specific purpose - I was focused on the course, or the TMSP, or whatever it was. My path started to diverge from the orthodoxy of the seven states, a year or so after learning the TMSP, (1981-ish), being plunged into so many experiences of "the finest relative", "GC", (probably also referred to as the third eye opening, from descriptions I have read) while very much in waking state.

I knew I hadn't been witnessing prior to all of this, and some of the stronger experiences incorporated witnessing too, so it was a very confusing time. Thankfully, I was also very busy with my life, and the intensity of the experiences became less important, in terms of family and career life.


So, it has been 35 years, or so, since I considered what the speed of my path to enlightenment was. As long as it stayed interesting, I kept with it, though never losing sight of the everyday life, my values, and goals, as a reality check, vs. some teacher telling me something. That's the way it rolled for me, and continues to.

---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@yahoogroups.com> wrote :




---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

Barry is trolling. I have never heard anyone in the TM Org, including my teacher, say that TM was the fastest way to enlightenment. It is not on any tapes, or in any lectures, or books. I challenge Barry to find even one recorded instance of this phrase, used by anyone in the TMO. He is more interested in tooting his limp horn, than any sort of reality based conversation. As usual.


Maybe you just met some more realistic teachers, I heard many say that "TM isn't the only path but it's the fastest one" And that the siddhi's were like "getting into the fast lane and putting your foot down". And I would swear that I heard Maharishi say it all too but can't give any context like whether it was from an old tape or from the Marshy channel.


But where do you suppose the teachers got it from if not from the reesh?


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

Actually, Barry, you've discounted Maharishi's progress on the spiritual path as someone who had achieved nothing. At the same time you've discussed your experiences practicing his technique, which happen to coincide with the signposts of higher consciousness outlined by M.

I always had a feeling that it would emerge that you would in some way appoint yourself as being the "One".


Maybe consider changing your handle to "Neo turq", or "Neo Barry"


No need to be modest about it.


Come out of the closet, boy.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and say, "This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of practicing TM."



Think of it...over 50 years with a single "success story" they're willing to present in public, and they still claim to be "the fastest path."
'Richard J. Williams' punditster@gmail.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-18 20:19:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
Barry is trolling. I have never heard anyone in the TM Org, including
my teacher, say that TM was the fastest way to enlightenment. It is
not on any tapes, or in any lectures, or books. I challenge Barry to
find even one recorded instance of this phrase, used by anyone in the
TMO. He is more interested in tooting his limp horn, than any sort of
reality based conversation. As usual.
/You can pretty much forget getting any response about this from Barry.
So, I'll tell you about the rumor

According to the rumor, Barry himself made up the phrase about TM being
"the fastest way to enlightenment." It was Barry that made up the
infamous posters that promised "enlightenment in 5-7 years" and he
apparently posted them all over town. From what I've heard, Jerry was
really pissed.

That's just one of the reasons Barry got kicked out of the TMO - for
making stuff up. Just like he makes up stuff about Rama levitating and
stuff. Its a pattern./
Post by ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
Actually, Barry, you've discounted Maharishi's progress on the
spiritual path as someone who had achieved nothing. At the same time
you've discussed your experiences practicing his technique, which
happen to coincide with the signposts of higher consciousness outlined
by M.
I always had a feeling that it would emerge that you would in some way
appoint yourself as being the "One".
Maybe consider changing your handle to "Neo turq", or "Neo Barry"
No need to be modest about it.
Come out of the closet, boy.
*/It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've
always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment
on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has
been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and say,
"This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of
practicing TM."
/*
*/
/*
*/Think of it...over 50 years with a single "success story" they're
willing to present in public, and they still claim to be "the fastest
path."
/*
*/
/*
steve.sundur@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-19 00:43:14 UTC
Permalink
That is my recollection as well, as one who did give many lectures and teach courses.

It just wasn't a talking point.


Of course was going to produce dozens of teachers who claimed something, I forget what, a few days ago.


I requested he produce one, which of course he couldn't.


What the f, do you think the lurking reporters make of this guy?


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

Barry is trolling. I have never heard anyone in the TM Org, including my teacher, say that TM was the fastest way to enlightenment. It is not on any tapes, or in any lectures, or books. I challenge Barry to find even one recorded instance of this phrase, used by anyone in the TMO. He is more interested in tooting his limp horn, than any sort of reality based conversation. As usual.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

Actually, Barry, you've discounted Maharishi's progress on the spiritual path as someone who had achieved nothing. At the same time you've discussed your experiences practicing his technique, which happen to coincide with the signposts of higher consciousness outlined by M.

I always had a feeling that it would emerge that you would in some way appoint yourself as being the "One".


Maybe consider changing your handle to "Neo turq", or "Neo Barry"


No need to be modest about it.


Come out of the closet, boy.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and say, "This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of practicing TM."



Think of it...over 50 years with a single "success story" they're willing to present in public, and they still claim to be "the fastest path."
fleetwood_macncheese@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-19 02:34:05 UTC
Permalink
Same conclusion as everyone else's - Edg nailed it to the wall.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

That is my recollection as well, as one who did give many lectures and teach courses.

It just wasn't a talking point.


Of course was going to produce dozens of teachers who claimed something, I forget what, a few days ago.


I requested he produce one, which of course he couldn't.


What the f, do you think the lurking reporters make of this guy?


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

Barry is trolling. I have never heard anyone in the TM Org, including my teacher, say that TM was the fastest way to enlightenment. It is not on any tapes, or in any lectures, or books. I challenge Barry to find even one recorded instance of this phrase, used by anyone in the TMO. He is more interested in tooting his limp horn, than any sort of reality based conversation. As usual.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

Actually, Barry, you've discounted Maharishi's progress on the spiritual path as someone who had achieved nothing. At the same time you've discussed your experiences practicing his technique, which happen to coincide with the signposts of higher consciousness outlined by M.

I always had a feeling that it would emerge that you would in some way appoint yourself as being the "One".


Maybe consider changing your handle to "Neo turq", or "Neo Barry"


No need to be modest about it.


Come out of the closet, boy.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and say, "This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of practicing TM."



Think of it...over 50 years with a single "success story" they're willing to present in public, and they still claim to be "the fastest path."
anartaxius@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-19 04:54:53 UTC
Permalink
Someone must have said the TM was the fastest way to enlightenment. I seem to recall hear that phrase, or something similar to it. On a quick search I found a website page that mentioned it:

http://shell.forethought.net/~risaacs/l_mahari.htm http://shell.forethought.net/~risaacs/l_mahari.htm

'Maharishi is a disciple of the now deceased, former Shankaracharya of North India, Swami Brahmananda Saraswati. This great swami was a Surya Yogin, and one of the characteristics of a Surya Yogin is that he teaches in a manner which causes different disciples to draw different conclusions about the nature of his teaching. A good example of this is the disparity in the teachings of Maharishi and those of Swami Prakashananda, both disciples of Swami Brahmananda Saraswati. The former claims that "TM" (a form of Raja Yoga) is the fastest way to enlightenment and the latter claims that his version of Bhakti Yoga is not only the fastest way, but also the only way to reach "the highest dimensions of spiritual awareness". Forgetting for the moment that both of these attitudes are not in harmony with key principles of The Art of Multi-dimensional Living, let us stay focused on Maharishi's contributions to the transformation of world consciousness and how he interpreted and developed Swami Brahmananda Saraswati's basic teaching.'



Another web page with a similar mention.


http://www.nnseek.com/Teachter_s.html http://www.nnseek.com/Teachter_s.html



'The reason he once started meditation was because of a meditation

teachter that told him when he was twenty: hey, Transcendental

Meditation is the fastest way to enlightenment. Then I knew: this is

what I was looking for.'


So the phrase seems to have been around. I think it is likely Maharishi said it at some point, as he always exaggerated for effect. I recall also something about in 5 years you would be enlightened with TM. I think Charlie Lutes said it. But then he added that Maharishi forgot to add the zeros.


I recall some governors in the mid seventies saying Maharishi said that some of them (in the group they were in on a course) might get enlightened, implying, because they were young, they might have enough time before they died.


If enlightenment is a state 'out of time', .i.e., eternal, how is it possible to get enlightened temporally? If it is reality, it already has to be here, whether it is realised or not. It is not a matter of doing something. It is a matter of letting something that is going on now stopping, so that the anticipation that enlightenment is going to be some event at a future time no longer arises in experience; then there is the possibility.


For any one individual, there is no fastest path, there is only what happens with that particular person, 30 seconds; 70 years; never; who knows?


What is the worst path to enlightenment, the one that takes the longest, but still works? Could it be we have already learned it?


=======

---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

Same conclusion as everyone else's - Edg nailed it to the wall.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

That is my recollection as well, as one who did give many lectures and teach courses.

It just wasn't a talking point.


Of course was going to produce dozens of teachers who claimed something, I forget what, a few days ago.


I requested he produce one, which of course he couldn't.


What the f, do you think the lurking reporters make of this guy?


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

Barry is trolling. I have never heard anyone in the TM Org, including my teacher, say that TM was the fastest way to enlightenment. It is not on any tapes, or in any lectures, or books. I challenge Barry to find even one recorded instance of this phrase, used by anyone in the TMO. He is more interested in tooting his limp horn, than any sort of reality based conversation. As usual.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

Actually, Barry, you've discounted Maharishi's progress on the spiritual path as someone who had achieved nothing. At the same time you've discussed your experiences practicing his technique, which happen to coincide with the signposts of higher consciousness outlined by M.

I always had a feeling that it would emerge that you would in some way appoint yourself as being the "One".


Maybe consider changing your handle to "Neo turq", or "Neo Barry"


No need to be modest about it.


Come out of the closet, boy.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and say, "This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of practicing TM."



Think of it...over 50 years with a single "success story" they're willing to present in public, and they still claim to be "the fastest path."
'Richard J. Williams' punditster@gmail.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-18 19:37:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
Actually, Barry, you've discounted Maharishi's progress on the
spiritual path as someone who had achieved nothing. At the same time
you've discussed your experiences practicing his technique, which
happen to coincide with the signposts of higher consciousness outlined
by M.
I always had a feeling that it would emerge that you would in some way
appoint yourself as being the "One".
Maybe consider changing your handle to "Neo turq", or "Neo Barry"
No need to be modest about it.
Come out of the closet, boy.
It's an amazing case study, Steve. So, I wonder how a guy like Barry
could get so totally turned around in such a short space of time?

Why would anyone upload mystical phrases to their own web site, and then
go on a public news group and disclaim everything they just wrote? Go
figure.

From Barry's own web site:

/"You don't need to be able to absorb a tremendous amount of the
mystical kundalini to realize God. It's not necessary. You can do it
through the supraconscious light; that is the easier way."/ - Rama

http://www.ramalila.net/RoadTripMind/rtm03.html
Post by ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
*/It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've
always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment
on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has
been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and say,
"This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of
practicing TM."
/*
*/
/*
*/Think of it...over 50 years with a single "success story" they're
willing to present in public, and they still claim to be "the fastest
path."
/*
*/
/*
Bhairitu noozguru@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-18 16:54:51 UTC
Permalink
*/It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've
always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment
on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has
been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and say,
"This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of
practicing TM."/*
What organization does?
TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-18 17:17:03 UTC
Permalink
From: "Bhairitu ***@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>

On 11/18/2014 04:26 AM, TurquoiseBee ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote:
  It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and say, "This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of practicing TM."



What organization does?
Just to make a point about the kinds of bullshit humans are willing to accept, think about the TM sales pitch for enlightenment, compared to almost anything else being sold on this planet:
-- "So, that's your introductory lecture. Just sign here, pay us your $75, and we promise you that you will be fully enlightened in five years."  (Please note that this actually *happened* with the TM movement.)
-- "Sounds good, but looking into my crystal ball that shows me the future, I can see that what you're trying to sell me isn't going to cost me only $75, but tens of thousands of dollars over 30 or 40 years, to pay for all the extra courses and 'add-ons' you'll try to sell me. What can you show me to convince me that this 'enlightenment' you're trying to sell me will actually occur, and that if it does, it's worth it?
-- "Well, you just have to trust us. Give us your money now, and in 5 to 8 years (ooops, sorry about that) you'll be enlightened. And you've heard the lectures -- when you're enlightened, you'll be able to know everything and have everything you want just by wanting it. Isn't that worth the hundreds of thousands of dollars (ooops again) you'll wind up paying us?"
-- "It *might* be worth it, but what can you show me to prove to me that this 'enlightenment' you're selling me actually exists? For example, there are many people here in the room today who have been practicing TM for more than 8 years, the maximum time you say it will take to become enlightened. Point out the ones who are enlightened, and let me talk to them to figure out if this is all going to be worth it."
-- "Sorry. <insert reverential tone of bullshit here> 'We don't talk about our individual state of consciousness.'"
-- "WTF? So you're saying that I just have to TRUST you about all this enlightenment stuff, and you are NEVER going to show me anyone who you can guarantee has achieved it?"
-- "That's right."
-- "You DO know that this is insane, right? Promising the 'fastest path' to something you'll later refuse to ever produce?"
-- "You think WE'RE insane? Talk to the millions of people who bought this exact sales pitch hook, line, and sinker." 

:-)
Bhairitu noozguru@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-18 17:45:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bhairitu ***@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]
*/It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've
always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment
on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has
been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and
say, "This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of
practicing TM."/*
What organization does?
*/Just to make a point about the kinds of bullshit humans are willing
to accept, think about the TM sales pitch for enlightenment, compared
to almost anything else being sold on this planet:/*
*/
/*
*/-- "So, that's your introductory lecture. Just sign here, pay us
your $75, and we promise you that you will be fully enlightened in
five years." /(Please note that this actually *happened* with the TM
movement.)*
*/
/*
*/-- "Sounds good, but looking into my crystal ball that shows me the
future, I can see that what you're trying to sell me isn't going to
cost me only $75, but tens of thousands of dollars over 30 or 40
years, to pay for all the extra courses and 'add-ons' you'll try to
sell me. What can you show me to convince me that this 'enlightenment'
you're trying to sell me will actually occur, and that if it does,
it's worth it?/*
*/
/*
*/-- "Well, you just have to trust us. Give us your money now, and in
5 to 8 years (ooops, sorry about that) you'll be enlightened. And
you've heard the lectures -- when you're enlightened, you'll be able
to know everything and have everything you want just by wanting it.
Isn't that worth the hundreds of thousands of dollars (ooops again)
you'll wind up paying us?"/*
*/
/*
*/-- "It *might* be worth it, but what can you show me to prove to me
that this 'enlightenment' you're selling me actually exists? For
example, there are many people here in the room today who have been
practicing TM for more than 8 years, the maximum time you say it will
take to become enlightened. Point out the ones who are enlightened,
and let me talk to them to figure out if this is all going to be worth
it."/*
*/
/*
*/-- "Sorry. <insert reverential tone of bullshit here> 'We don't talk
about our individual state of consciousness.'"/*
*/
/*
*/-- "WTF? So you're saying that I just have to TRUST you about all
this enlightenment stuff, and you are NEVER going to show me anyone
who you can guarantee has achieved it?"/*
*/
/*
*/-- "That's right."/*
*/
/*
*/-- "You DO know that this is insane, right? Promising the 'fastest
path' to something you'll later refuse to ever produce?"/*
*/
/*
*/-- "You think WE'RE insane? Talk to the millions of people who
bought this exact sales pitch hook, line, and sinker."
/*
*/
/*
*/:-)/*
It's a "path to enlightenment" but my point was that no organization I
know of guarantees it. You can't. It even goes against TM teaching
because one's progress is dependent on the state of their nervous
system. And by no means would it be the fastest. It really is just a
meditation for the masses. It's nothing special other than it was
probably better organized than some of the other front runners.
TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-18 18:06:15 UTC
Permalink
From: "Bhairitu ***@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]"
 

On 11/18/2014 09:17 AM, TurquoiseBee ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote:

  From: "Bhairitu ***@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>

On 11/18/2014 04:26 AM, TurquoiseBee ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote:
  It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and say, "This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of practicing TM."



What organization does?
Just to make a point about the kinds of bullshit humans are willing to accept, think about the TM sales pitch for enlightenment, compared to almost anything else being sold on this planet:
-- "So, that's your introductory lecture. Just sign here, pay us your $75, and we promise you that you will be fully enlightened in five years."  (Please note that this actually *happened* with the TM movement.)
-- "Sounds good, but looking into my crystal ball that shows me the future, I can see that what you're trying to sell me isn't going to cost me only $75, but tens of thousands of dollars over 30 or 40 years, to pay for all the extra courses and 'add-ons' you'll try to sell me. What can you show me to convince me that this 'enlightenment' you're trying to sell me will actually occur, and that if it does, it's worth it?
-- "Well, you just have to trust us. Give us your money now, and in 5 to 8 years (ooops, sorry about that) you'll be enlightened. And you've heard the lectures -- when you're enlightened, you'll be able to know everything and have everything you want just by wanting it. Isn't that worth the hundreds of thousands of dollars (ooops again) you'll wind up paying us?"
-- "It *might* be worth it, but what can you show me to prove to me that this 'enlightenment' you're selling me actually exists? For example, there are many people here in the room today who have been practicing TM for more than 8 years, the maximum time you say it will take to become enlightened. Point out the ones who are enlightened, and let me talk to them to figure out if this is all going to be worth it."
-- "Sorry. <insert reverential tone of bullshit here> 'We don't talk about our individual state of consciousness.'"
-- "WTF? So you're saying that I just have to TRUST you about all this enlightenment stuff, and you are NEVER going to show me anyone who you can guarantee has achieved it?"
-- "That's right."
-- "You DO know that this is insane, right? Promising the 'fastest path' to something you'll later refuse to ever produce?"
-- "You think WE'RE insane? Talk to the millions of people who bought this exact sales pitch hook, line, and sinker." 

:-)


It's a "path to enlightenment" but my point was that no organization I know of guarantees it.  You can't.  It even goes against TM teaching because one's progress is dependent on the state of their nervous system.  And by no means would it be the fastest.  It really is just a meditation for the masses.  It's nothing special other than it was probably better organized than some of the other front runners.

Bhairitu, it's not "guaranteeing enlightenment" that I'm riffing on for hopefully humorous purposes. It's the promising it for 50 years and never *producing* it I'm riffing on. 
That, and the fact that they got away with it because their clientele was too stupid to ever say, "Now wait a minute...where are all these enlightened people you promised me I'd be surrounded by and be one of? Point them out to me. Show me an enlightened person."

Someone saying that -- *anyone* saying that -- would have been the counterpart of the line in the fairy tale that goes, "Uh, guys...you *have* noticed that the Emperor has no clothes on, right?" Asked to put up or shut up and actually *produce* a "certified TM enlightened person," the TMO wouldn't have been able to do so.

It's all a house of cards perpetuated by the fact that no one ever says, "Show me an enlightened person."
Share Long sharelong60@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-18 19:26:29 UTC
Permalink
First of all, I'm familiar with spiritual groups who proclaim people enlightened. I didn't always agree with their proclamations! And as mentioned, I know of a group who gives certificates of enlightenment.  Maybe they use different criteria than me! I also know people in the TMO who I think are pretty darn enlightened. But of course they don't proclaim themselves as such.
The whole thing is such a hodge podge that I simply ignore all the posturing and go by my own sense of a person. And actually, it doesn't matter to me whether or not they're "enlightened." There are other qualities that I value more.
From: "TurquoiseBee ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

  From: "Bhairitu ***@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]"
 

On 11/18/2014 09:17 AM, TurquoiseBee ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote:

  From: "Bhairitu ***@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>

On 11/18/2014 04:26 AM, TurquoiseBee ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote:
  It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and say, "This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of practicing TM."



What organization does?
Just to make a point about the kinds of bullshit humans are willing to accept, think about the TM sales pitch for enlightenment, compared to almost anything else being sold on this planet:
-- "So, that's your introductory lecture. Just sign here, pay us your $75, and we promise you that you will be fully enlightened in five years."  (Please note that this actually *happened* with the TM movement.)
-- "Sounds good, but looking into my crystal ball that shows me the future, I can see that what you're trying to sell me isn't going to cost me only $75, but tens of thousands of dollars over 30 or 40 years, to pay for all the extra courses and 'add-ons' you'll try to sell me. What can you show me to convince me that this 'enlightenment' you're trying to sell me will actually occur, and that if it does, it's worth it?
-- "Well, you just have to trust us. Give us your money now, and in 5 to 8 years (ooops, sorry about that) you'll be enlightened. And you've heard the lectures -- when you're enlightened, you'll be able to know everything and have everything you want just by wanting it. Isn't that worth the hundreds of thousands of dollars (ooops again) you'll wind up paying us?"
-- "It *might* be worth it, but what can you show me to prove to me that this 'enlightenment' you're selling me actually exists? For example, there are many people here in the room today who have been practicing TM for more than 8 years, the maximum time you say it will take to become enlightened. Point out the ones who are enlightened, and let me talk to them to figure out if this is all going to be worth it."
-- "Sorry. <insert reverential tone of bullshit here> 'We don't talk about our individual state of consciousness.'"
-- "WTF? So you're saying that I just have to TRUST you about all this enlightenment stuff, and you are NEVER going to show me anyone who you can guarantee has achieved it?"
-- "That's right."
-- "You DO know that this is insane, right? Promising the 'fastest path' to something you'll later refuse to ever produce?"
-- "You think WE'RE insane? Talk to the millions of people who bought this exact sales pitch hook, line, and sinker." 

:-)


It's a "path to enlightenment" but my point was that no organization I know of guarantees it.  You can't.  It even goes against TM teaching because one's progress is dependent on the state of their nervous system.  And by no means would it be the fastest.  It really is just a meditation for the masses.  It's nothing special other than it was probably better organized than some of the other front runners.

Bhairitu, it's not "guaranteeing enlightenment" that I'm riffing on for hopefully humorous purposes. It's the promising it for 50 years and never *producing* it I'm riffing on. 
That, and the fact that they got away with it because their clientele was too stupid to ever say, "Now wait a minute...where are all these enlightened people you promised me I'd be surrounded by and be one of? Point them out to me. Show me an enlightened person."

Someone saying that -- *anyone* saying that -- would have been the counterpart of the line in the fairy tale that goes, "Uh, guys...you *have* noticed that the Emperor has no clothes on, right?" Asked to put up or shut up and actually *produce* a "certified TM enlightened person," the TMO wouldn't have been able to do so.

It's all a house of cards perpetuated by the fact that no one ever says, "Show me an enlightened person."




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Michael Jackson mjackson74@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-18 19:29:38 UTC
Permalink
And yet from the very beginning of the Movement till about the 1980's enlightenment was what we were all chasing and what Marshy emphasized over and over. Till it became obvious that no one was getting enlightened even with the 10,000 times more powerful than TM TMSP program so he switched to world peace.

From: "Share Long ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

  First of all, I'm familiar with spiritual groups who proclaim people enlightened. I didn't always agree with their proclamations! And as mentioned, I know of a group who gives certificates of enlightenment.  Maybe they use different criteria than me! I also know people in the TMO who I think are pretty darn enlightened. But of course they don't proclaim themselves as such.
The whole thing is such a hodge podge that I simply ignore all the posturing and go by my own sense of a person. And actually, it doesn't matter to me whether or not they're "enlightened." There are other qualities that I value more.


From: "TurquoiseBee ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

  From: "Bhairitu ***@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]"
 

On 11/18/2014 09:17 AM, TurquoiseBee ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote:

  From: "Bhairitu ***@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>

On 11/18/2014 04:26 AM, TurquoiseBee ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote:
  It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and say, "This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of practicing TM."



What organization does?
Just to make a point about the kinds of bullshit humans are willing to accept, think about the TM sales pitch for enlightenment, compared to almost anything else being sold on this planet:
-- "So, that's your introductory lecture. Just sign here, pay us your $75, and we promise you that you will be fully enlightened in five years."  (Please note that this actually *happened* with the TM movement.)
-- "Sounds good, but looking into my crystal ball that shows me the future, I can see that what you're trying to sell me isn't going to cost me only $75, but tens of thousands of dollars over 30 or 40 years, to pay for all the extra courses and 'add-ons' you'll try to sell me. What can you show me to convince me that this 'enlightenment' you're trying to sell me will actually occur, and that if it does, it's worth it?
-- "Well, you just have to trust us. Give us your money now, and in 5 to 8 years (ooops, sorry about that) you'll be enlightened. And you've heard the lectures -- when you're enlightened, you'll be able to know everything and have everything you want just by wanting it. Isn't that worth the hundreds of thousands of dollars (ooops again) you'll wind up paying us?"
-- "It *might* be worth it, but what can you show me to prove to me that this 'enlightenment' you're selling me actually exists? For example, there are many people here in the room today who have been practicing TM for more than 8 years, the maximum time you say it will take to become enlightened. Point out the ones who are enlightened, and let me talk to them to figure out if this is all going to be worth it."
-- "Sorry. <insert reverential tone of bullshit here> 'We don't talk about our individual state of consciousness.'"
-- "WTF? So you're saying that I just have to TRUST you about all this enlightenment stuff, and you are NEVER going to show me anyone who you can guarantee has achieved it?"
-- "That's right."
-- "You DO know that this is insane, right? Promising the 'fastest path' to something you'll later refuse to ever produce?"
-- "You think WE'RE insane? Talk to the millions of people who bought this exact sales pitch hook, line, and sinker." 

:-)


It's a "path to enlightenment" but my point was that no organization I know of guarantees it.  You can't.  It even goes against TM teaching because one's progress is dependent on the state of their nervous system.  And by no means would it be the fastest.  It really is just a meditation for the masses.  It's nothing special other than it was probably better organized than some of the other front runners.

Bhairitu, it's not "guaranteeing enlightenment" that I'm riffing on for hopefully humorous purposes. It's the promising it for 50 years and never *producing* it I'm riffing on. 
That, and the fact that they got away with it because their clientele was too stupid to ever say, "Now wait a minute...where are all these enlightened people you promised me I'd be surrounded by and be one of? Point them out to me. Show me an enlightened person."

Someone saying that -- *anyone* saying that -- would have been the counterpart of the line in the fairy tale that goes, "Uh, guys...you *have* noticed that the Emperor has no clothes on, right?" Asked to put up or shut up and actually *produce* a "certified TM enlightened person," the TMO wouldn't have been able to do so.

It's all a house of cards perpetuated by the fact that no one ever says, "Show me an enlightened person."






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Share Long sharelong60@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-18 19:34:53 UTC
Permalink
MJ, speak for yourself! I was never chasing enlightenment. I simply wanted to fulfill my desires.

From: "Michael Jackson ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

  And yet from the very beginning of the Movement till about the 1980's enlightenment was what we were all chasing and what Marshy emphasized over and over. Till it became obvious that no one was getting enlightened even with the 10,000 times more powerful than TM TMSP program so he switched to world peace.



From: "Share Long ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

  First of all, I'm familiar with spiritual groups who proclaim people enlightened. I didn't always agree with their proclamations! And as mentioned, I know of a group who gives certificates of enlightenment.  Maybe they use different criteria than me! I also know people in the TMO who I think are pretty darn enlightened. But of course they don't proclaim themselves as such.
The whole thing is such a hodge podge that I simply ignore all the posturing and go by my own sense of a person. And actually, it doesn't matter to me whether or not they're "enlightened." There are other qualities that I value more.


From: "TurquoiseBee ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

  From: "Bhairitu ***@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]"
 

On 11/18/2014 09:17 AM, TurquoiseBee ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote:

  From: "Bhairitu ***@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>

On 11/18/2014 04:26 AM, TurquoiseBee ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote:
  It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and say, "This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of practicing TM."



What organization does?
Just to make a point about the kinds of bullshit humans are willing to accept, think about the TM sales pitch for enlightenment, compared to almost anything else being sold on this planet:
-- "So, that's your introductory lecture. Just sign here, pay us your $75, and we promise you that you will be fully enlightened in five years."  (Please note that this actually *happened* with the TM movement.)
-- "Sounds good, but looking into my crystal ball that shows me the future, I can see that what you're trying to sell me isn't going to cost me only $75, but tens of thousands of dollars over 30 or 40 years, to pay for all the extra courses and 'add-ons' you'll try to sell me. What can you show me to convince me that this 'enlightenment' you're trying to sell me will actually occur, and that if it does, it's worth it?
-- "Well, you just have to trust us. Give us your money now, and in 5 to 8 years (ooops, sorry about that) you'll be enlightened. And you've heard the lectures -- when you're enlightened, you'll be able to know everything and have everything you want just by wanting it. Isn't that worth the hundreds of thousands of dollars (ooops again) you'll wind up paying us?"
-- "It *might* be worth it, but what can you show me to prove to me that this 'enlightenment' you're selling me actually exists? For example, there are many people here in the room today who have been practicing TM for more than 8 years, the maximum time you say it will take to become enlightened. Point out the ones who are enlightened, and let me talk to them to figure out if this is all going to be worth it."
-- "Sorry. <insert reverential tone of bullshit here> 'We don't talk about our individual state of consciousness.'"
-- "WTF? So you're saying that I just have to TRUST you about all this enlightenment stuff, and you are NEVER going to show me anyone who you can guarantee has achieved it?"
-- "That's right."
-- "You DO know that this is insane, right? Promising the 'fastest path' to something you'll later refuse to ever produce?"
-- "You think WE'RE insane? Talk to the millions of people who bought this exact sales pitch hook, line, and sinker." 

:-)


It's a "path to enlightenment" but my point was that no organization I know of guarantees it.  You can't.  It even goes against TM teaching because one's progress is dependent on the state of their nervous system.  And by no means would it be the fastest.  It really is just a meditation for the masses.  It's nothing special other than it was probably better organized than some of the other front runners.

Bhairitu, it's not "guaranteeing enlightenment" that I'm riffing on for hopefully humorous purposes. It's the promising it for 50 years and never *producing* it I'm riffing on. 
That, and the fact that they got away with it because their clientele was too stupid to ever say, "Now wait a minute...where are all these enlightened people you promised me I'd be surrounded by and be one of? Point them out to me. Show me an enlightened person."

Someone saying that -- *anyone* saying that -- would have been the counterpart of the line in the fairy tale that goes, "Uh, guys...you *have* noticed that the Emperor has no clothes on, right?" Asked to put up or shut up and actually *produce* a "certified TM enlightened person," the TMO wouldn't have been able to do so.

It's all a house of cards perpetuated by the fact that no one ever says, "Show me an enlightened person."








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anartaxius@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-18 20:17:22 UTC
Permalink
The Zen trained Adyashanti had this to say about 'enlightenment success':

'When I looked around at the Buddhist tradition, I realized that the success rate was terrible. People were in it for enlightenment, but very few were actually getting enlightened. If this were a business, I thought, we'd be bankrupt.'


'I think it's unfortunate that a person can spend hour after hour, day after day, year after year, dedicating his life to enlightenment, and yet the very notion that anybody attains enlightenment is a taboo. We're all going after this; but God forbid somebody says they've realized it. We don't believe them, we're cynical, we have doubt; we go immediately into a semi- (or overt) attack mode. To me, it highlights the fact that people are chasing an awakening they don't believe could happen to them. That's a barrier, and the biggest one... And when people have breakthroughs and talk about them in public, awakening loses its mystique. Everyone else can see that it's not just special people who have deep awakenings, it's their neighbor or their best friend.'


The TMO seemed to do pretty well for a while selling something nobody seems to have found. Perhaps one reason for this is the ideas we have in our heads about what enlightenment is supposed to be. The usual ideas about what enlightenment is, are something out of a comic book, something fantastical. Maybe it is something not quite so interesting to talk about, something so familiar that you discount it entirely.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

MJ, speak for yourself! I was never chasing enlightenment. I simply wanted to fulfill my desires.


From: "Michael Jackson ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor



And yet from the very beginning of the Movement till about the 1980's enlightenment was what we were all chasing and what Marshy emphasized over and over. Till it became obvious that no one was getting enlightened even with the 10,000 times more powerful than TM TMSP program so he switched to world peace.





From: "Share Long ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor



First of all, I'm familiar with spiritual groups who proclaim people enlightened. I didn't always agree with their proclamations! And as mentioned, I know of a group who gives certificates of enlightenment. Maybe they use different criteria than me! I also know people in the TMO who I think are pretty darn enlightened. But of course they don't proclaim themselves as such.

The whole thing is such a hodge podge that I simply ignore all the posturing and go by my own sense of a person. And actually, it doesn't matter to me whether or not they're "enlightened." There are other qualities that I value more.



From: "TurquoiseBee ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor



From: "Bhairitu ***@... [FairfieldLife]"




On 11/18/2014 09:17 AM, TurquoiseBee ***@... mailto:***@... [FairfieldLife] wrote:

From: "Bhairitu ***@... mailto:***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com> mailto:***@yahoogroups.com


On 11/18/2014 04:26 AM, TurquoiseBee ***@... mailto:***@... [FairfieldLife] wrote:

It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and say, "This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of practicing TM."






What organization does?


Just to make a point about the kinds of bullshit humans are willing to accept, think about the TM sales pitch for enlightenment, compared to almost anything else being sold on this planet:


-- "So, that's your introductory lecture. Just sign here, pay us your $75, and we promise you that you will be fully enlightened in five years." (Please note that this actually *happened* with the TM movement.)


-- "Sounds good, but looking into my crystal ball that shows me the future, I can see that what you're trying to sell me isn't going to cost me only $75, but tens of thousands of dollars over 30 or 40 years, to pay for all the extra courses and 'add-ons' you'll try to sell me. What can you show me to convince me that this 'enlightenment' you're trying to sell me will actually occur, and that if it does, it's worth it?


-- "Well, you just have to trust us. Give us your money now, and in 5 to 8 years (ooops, sorry about that) you'll be enlightened. And you've heard the lectures -- when you're enlightened, you'll be able to know everything and have everything you want just by wanting it. Isn't that worth the hundreds of thousands of dollars (ooops again) you'll wind up paying us?"


-- "It *might* be worth it, but what can you show me to prove to me that this 'enlightenment' you're selling me actually exists? For example, there are many people here in the room today who have been practicing TM for more than 8 years, the maximum time you say it will take to become enlightened. Point out the ones who are enlightened, and let me talk to them to figure out if this is all going to be worth it."


-- "Sorry. <insert reverential tone of bullshit here> 'We don't talk about our individual state of consciousness.'"


-- "WTF? So you're saying that I just have to TRUST you about all this enlightenment stuff, and you are NEVER going to show me anyone who you can guarantee has achieved it?"


-- "That's right."


-- "You DO know that this is insane, right? Promising the 'fastest path' to something you'll later refuse to ever produce?"


-- "You think WE'RE insane? Talk to the millions of people who bought this exact sales pitch hook, line, and sinker."



:-)













It's a "path to enlightenment" but my point was that no organization I know of guarantees it. You can't. It even goes against TM teaching because one's progress is dependent on the state of their nervous system. And by no means would it be the fastest. It really is just a meditation for the masses. It's nothing special other than it was probably better organized than some of the other front runners.



Bhairitu, it's not "guaranteeing enlightenment" that I'm riffing on for hopefully humorous purposes. It's the promising it for 50 years and never *producing* it I'm riffing on.


That, and the fact that they got away with it because their clientele was too stupid to ever say, "Now wait a minute...where are all these enlightened people you promised me I'd be surrounded by and be one of? Point them out to me. Show me an enlightened person."







Someone saying that -- *anyone* saying that -- would have been the counterpart of the line in the fairy tale that goes, "Uh, guys...you *have* noticed that the Emperor has no clothes on, right?" Asked to put up or shut up and actually *produce* a "certified TM enlightened person," the TMO wouldn't have been able to do so.



It's all a house of cards perpetuated by the fact that no one ever says, "Show me an enlightened person."
TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-19 12:05:35 UTC
Permalink
From: "***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>

  The Zen trained Adyashanti had this to say about 'enlightenment success':
'When I looked around at the Buddhist tradition, I realized that the success rate was terrible. People were in it for enlightenment, but very few were actually getting enlightened. If this were a business, I thought, we'd be bankrupt.'
'I think it's unfortunate that a person can spend hour after hour, day after day, year after year, dedicating his life to enlightenment, and yet the very notion that anybody attains enlightenment is a taboo. We're all going after this; but God forbid somebody says they've realized it. We don't believe them, we're cynical, we have doubt; we go immediately into a semi- (or overt) attack mode. To me, it highlights the fact that people are chasing an awakening they don't believe could happen to them.

I've heard this rap from him before, and I think he's being simplistic. For example, his model doesn't work for me -- I've had enlightenment experiences, and the way I figure it, if I could have them, *anybody* could. So the belief that "it can't happen" is not in play.

Instead, when I object to someone's claim of being enlightened, in almost every case it's because THEY ARE NOT WALKING THEIR *OWN* TALK. That is, they are acting contrary to their *own* definitions and descriptions of what enlightenment is.

That was the problem with Maharishi, it was the problem with Rama-Fred Lenz, and it is *certainly* the problem with low-level poseurs like Jim Flanegin or Robin Carlsen. All four of these people IMO suffered from long-term narcissistic personality disorder all their lives, and so when they had some *minor* experience of boundlessness or witnessing, their own self-centeredness and narcissism made them assume that they were "enlightened" and they began to claim it to other people. The "tell" that none of them were, in fact, enlightened is that when all of them are called upon to define what enlightenment is or what it means, *their own thoughts, words, and actions* don't fit their own definitions.

It's like they define enlightenment as A, B, and C but then act out X, Y, and Z. They're so narcissistic that they don't notice the discrepancy, and so they think no one will else notice.
They're wrong. We notice.
Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-19 16:20:00 UTC
Permalink
I think this brings up an interesting point. How does one define 'enlightenment'. The most overreaching attempts include the entire universe as a connected unity, and that would imply simply that all that exists is what enlightenment is about. If you include everything you cannot define enlightenment as A, B, C minus some bad parts you do not like. So if, simplistically the universe is A, B, C, X, Y, and Z, you have to include them all. There is a phrase in Zen 'walk off with the farmer's ox, steal the blind man's food', which is an expression of unboundedness. This is kind of how the TMO behaves. From my perspective, enlightenment does not have any injunctions on behaviour in spite of advertisements to the contrary, all enlightenment does is reveal the connectedness of the universe, and if you want to be a 'good person', first you have to define what a good person is, and then you have to act that way, and that is a local phenomenon, an aspect of the universe far reduced from the whole. You could be enlightened and a criminal. If you listen to Charles Manson (I saw that picture online too), while he seems sort of crazy, he also often expresses unboundedness in his understanding of the world.
Religions, which presumably have some connexion with the idea of enlightenment have all these rules for governing behaviour, and the question one could ask is, if religion is so great and will straighten people out, why are these rules necessary? (and one could also ask why are the rules inconsistent between religions regarding behaviour). If you say god created the universe and the way it runs, then the universe is a serial killer. Like father, like son and daughter. Looking at religious figures, gurus, etc., one cannot conclude that these rules and enlightenment techniques substantially affect behaviour that we would call 'bad'. This issue of behaviour is one which we in civilised society do not seem to have much of a clue on how to solve, and all the methods we have invented to fix it have failed.
How do you traverse society without leaving mangled bodies, psychologically damaged bodies, emotionally damaged bodies,  in your wake? There does not seem to be a direct connexion with seeing the world as unbounded, and acting in it in a bound way unless there is an internal switch that pains you if you cause harm. Some people do not seem to have that switch (sociopaths and psychopaths), or a 'damaged' switch and have reduced empathy. Some people are crushed by having too much empathy. If you eliminate pain and suffering from your own life, will you care about others if life no longer pains you? There seems to be a variable in all this that is not accounted for and which does not seem to be affected much by the things people do in the hope of gaining enlightenment.
An example of unboundedness and unity from the Bible. Isaiah, in a literal translation (bolded are words in original Hebrew).
Except for me, there is no Elohim; I am forearming you, yet you do not know me, That they may know, From the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is no one apart from me; I am Yahweh, and there is no other.  Former of light and creator of darkness, maker of good and creator of evil, I, Yahweh, make all these.
Here you have all the darkness you would want emanating from the supposed source of creation (a great way to express narcissism too). There are similar passage in the Bhagavad-Gita. If everything, good and bad are integral in existence and are sourced from the same origin or have the same being, and we come to direct knowledge of that, what is to prevent us from being all those qualities that (some) people abhor?
Light is the left hand of darknessand darkness the right hand of light.Two are one, life and death, lyingtogether like lovers in kemmer,like hands joined together,like the end and the way.

                  —Ursula K. Le Guin

From: "TurquoiseBee ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2014 12:05 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

  From: "***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>

  The Zen trained Adyashanti had this to say about 'enlightenment success':
'When I looked around at the Buddhist tradition, I realized that the success rate was terrible. People were in it for enlightenment, but very few were actually getting enlightened. If this were a business, I thought, we'd be bankrupt.'
'I think it's unfortunate that a person can spend hour after hour, day after day, year after year, dedicating his life to enlightenment, and yet the very notion that anybody attains enlightenment is a taboo. We're all going after this; but God forbid somebody says they've realized it. We don't believe them, we're cynical, we have doubt; we go immediately into a semi- (or overt) attack mode. To me, it highlights the fact that people are chasing an awakening they don't believe could happen to them.

I've heard this rap from him before, and I think he's being simplistic. For example, his model doesn't work for me -- I've had enlightenment experiences, and the way I figure it, if I could have them, *anybody* could. So the belief that "it can't happen" is not in play.

Instead, when I object to someone's claim of being enlightened, in almost every case it's because THEY ARE NOT WALKING THEIR *OWN* TALK. That is, they are acting contrary to their *own* definitions and descriptions of what enlightenment is.

That was the problem with Maharishi, it was the problem with Rama-Fred Lenz, and it is *certainly* the problem with low-level poseurs like Jim Flanegin or Robin Carlsen. All four of these people IMO suffered from long-term narcissistic personality disorder all their lives, and so when they had some *minor* experience of boundlessness or witnessing, their own self-centeredness and narcissism made them assume that they were "enlightened" and they began to claim it to other people. The "tell" that none of them were, in fact, enlightened is that when all of them are called upon to define what enlightenment is or what it means, *their own thoughts, words, and actions* don't fit their own definitions.

It's like they define enlightenment as A, B, and C but then act out X, Y, and Z. They're so narcissistic that they don't notice the discrepancy, and so they think no one will else notice.
They're wrong. We notice.





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Share Long sharelong60@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-19 16:45:04 UTC
Permalink
The nutshell about behavior and enlightenement is this: basically in the Gita, God is telling a man to kill, but to do so established in Being. If it's ok to kill established in Being, then logically any action would be ok if the doer is established in Being.

No wonder the CIA checked out the TMO! It's pretty revolutionary stuff if one gets the nitty gritty of it. Also there's a place in his Commentary where Maharishi explains that eventually one also has to become unattached to positivity. IMO, another great thought stopper!
On Kohlberg's moral reasoning scale, TMers scored in the more developed category, which is morality unlimited by traditional religious rules.

From: "Xenophaneros Anartaxius ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2014 10:20 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

  I think this brings up an interesting point. How does one define 'enlightenment'. The most overreaching attempts include the entire universe as a connected unity, and that would imply simply that all that exists is what enlightenment is about. If you include everything you cannot define enlightenment as A, B, C minus some bad parts you do not like. So if, simplistically the universe is A, B, C, X, Y, and Z, you have to include them all. There is a phrase in Zen 'walk off with the farmer's ox, steal the blind man's food', which is an expression of unboundedness. This is kind of how the TMO behaves. From my perspective, enlightenment does not have any injunctions on behaviour in spite of advertisements to the contrary, all enlightenment does is reveal the connectedness of the universe, and if you want to be a 'good person', first you have to define what a good person is, and then you have to act that way, and that is a local phenomenon, an aspect of the universe far reduced from the whole. You could be enlightened and a criminal. If you listen to Charles Manson (I saw that picture online too), while he seems sort of crazy, he also often expresses unboundedness in his understanding of the world.
Religions, which presumably have some connexion with the idea of enlightenment have all these rules for governing behaviour, and the question one could ask is, if religion is so great and will straighten people out, why are these rules necessary? (and one could also ask why are the rules inconsistent between religions regarding behaviour). If you say god created the universe and the way it runs, then the universe is a serial killer. Like father, like son and daughter. Looking at religious figures, gurus, etc., one cannot conclude that these rules and enlightenment techniques substantially affect behaviour that we would call 'bad'. This issue of behaviour is one which we in civilised society do not seem to have much of a clue on how to solve, and all the methods we have invented to fix it have failed.
How do you traverse society without leaving mangled bodies, psychologically damaged bodies, emotionally damaged bodies,  in your wake? There does not seem to be a direct connexion with seeing the world as unbounded, and acting in it in a bound way unless there is an internal switch that pains you if you cause harm. Some people do not seem to have that switch (sociopaths and psychopaths), or a 'damaged' switch and have reduced empathy. Some people are crushed by having too much empathy. If you eliminate pain and suffering from your own life, will you care about others if life no longer pains you? There seems to be a variable in all this that is not accounted for and which does not seem to be affected much by the things people do in the hope of gaining enlightenment.
An example of unboundedness and unity from the Bible. Isaiah, in a literal translation (bolded are words in original Hebrew).
Except for me, there is no Elohim; I am forearming you, yet you do not know me, That they may know, From the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is no one apart from me; I am Yahweh, and there is no other.  Former of light and creator of darkness, maker of good and creator of evil, I, Yahweh, make all these.
Here you have all the darkness you would want emanating from the supposed source of creation (a great way to express narcissism too). There are similar passage in the Bhagavad-Gita. If everything, good and bad are integral in existence and are sourced from the same origin or have the same being, and we come to direct knowledge of that, what is to prevent us from being all those qualities that (some) people abhor?
Light is the left hand of darknessand darkness the right hand of light.Two are one, life and death, lyingtogether like lovers in kemmer,like hands joined together,like the end and the way.

                  —Ursula K. Le Guin



From: "TurquoiseBee ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2014 12:05 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

  From: "***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>

  The Zen trained Adyashanti had this to say about 'enlightenment success':
'When I looked around at the Buddhist tradition, I realized that the success rate was terrible. People were in it for enlightenment, but very few were actually getting enlightened. If this were a business, I thought, we'd be bankrupt.'
'I think it's unfortunate that a person can spend hour after hour, day after day, year after year, dedicating his life to enlightenment, and yet the very notion that anybody attains enlightenment is a taboo. We're all going after this; but God forbid somebody says they've realized it. We don't believe them, we're cynical, we have doubt; we go immediately into a semi- (or overt) attack mode. To me, it highlights the fact that people are chasing an awakening they don't believe could happen to them.

I've heard this rap from him before, and I think he's being simplistic. For example, his model doesn't work for me -- I've had enlightenment experiences, and the way I figure it, if I could have them, *anybody* could. So the belief that "it can't happen" is not in play.

Instead, when I object to someone's claim of being enlightened, in almost every case it's because THEY ARE NOT WALKING THEIR *OWN* TALK. That is, they are acting contrary to their *own* definitions and descriptions of what enlightenment is.

That was the problem with Maharishi, it was the problem with Rama-Fred Lenz, and it is *certainly* the problem with low-level poseurs like Jim Flanegin or Robin Carlsen. All four of these people IMO suffered from long-term narcissistic personality disorder all their lives, and so when they had some *minor* experience of boundlessness or witnessing, their own self-centeredness and narcissism made them assume that they were "enlightened" and they began to claim it to other people. The "tell" that none of them were, in fact, enlightened is that when all of them are called upon to define what enlightenment is or what it means, *their own thoughts, words, and actions* don't fit their own definitions.

It's like they define enlightenment as A, B, and C but then act out X, Y, and Z. They're so narcissistic that they don't notice the discrepancy, and so they think no one will else notice.
They're wrong. We notice.







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fleetwood_macncheese@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-19 12:44:08 UTC
Permalink
"'I think it's unfortunate that a person can spend hour after hour, day after day, year after year, dedicating his life to enlightenment, and yet the very notion that anybody attains enlightenment is a taboo. We're all going after this; but God forbid somebody says they've realized it. We don't believe them, we're cynical, we have doubt; we go immediately into a semi- (or overt) attack mode. To me, it highlights the fact that people are chasing an awakening they don't believe could happen to them. That's a barrier, and the biggest one..."

An excellent insight. I enjoy Adyashanti's clarity. He also comes from a town in the Bay Area that I am very familiar with, so it gives me an insight into his temperament.


This is exactly why I talk about enlightenment - It is possible, and even likely, to realize enlightenment, using the TM and TMSP techniques, and not just by saintly folks, but by ordinary schlubs, like me!


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

The Zen trained Adyashanti had this to say about 'enlightenment success':

'When I looked around at the Buddhist tradition, I realized that the success rate was terrible. People were in it for enlightenment, but very few were actually getting enlightened. If this were a business, I thought, we'd be bankrupt.'


'I think it's unfortunate that a person can spend hour after hour, day after day, year after year, dedicating his life to enlightenment, and yet the very notion that anybody attains enlightenment is a taboo. We're all going after this; but God forbid somebody says they've realized it. We don't believe them, we're cynical, we have doubt; we go immediately into a semi- (or overt) attack mode. To me, it highlights the fact that people are chasing an awakening they don't believe could happen to them. That's a barrier, and the biggest one... And when people have breakthroughs and talk about them in public, awakening loses its mystique. Everyone else can see that it's not just special people who have deep awakenings, it's their neighbor or their best friend.'


The TMO seemed to do pretty well for a while selling something nobody seems to have found. Perhaps one reason for this is the ideas we have in our heads about what enlightenment is supposed to be. The usual ideas about what enlightenment is, are something out of a comic book, something fantastical. Maybe it is something not quite so interesting to talk about, something so familiar that you discount it entirely.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

MJ, speak for yourself! I was never chasing enlightenment. I simply wanted to fulfill my desires.


From: "Michael Jackson ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor



And yet from the very beginning of the Movement till about the 1980's enlightenment was what we were all chasing and what Marshy emphasized over and over. Till it became obvious that no one was getting enlightened even with the 10,000 times more powerful than TM TMSP program so he switched to world peace.





From: "Share Long ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor



First of all, I'm familiar with spiritual groups who proclaim people enlightened. I didn't always agree with their proclamations! And as mentioned, I know of a group who gives certificates of enlightenment. Maybe they use different criteria than me! I also know people in the TMO who I think are pretty darn enlightened. But of course they don't proclaim themselves as such.

The whole thing is such a hodge podge that I simply ignore all the posturing and go by my own sense of a person. And actually, it doesn't matter to me whether or not they're "enlightened." There are other qualities that I value more.



From: "TurquoiseBee ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor



From: "Bhairitu ***@... [FairfieldLife]"




On 11/18/2014 09:17 AM, TurquoiseBee ***@... mailto:***@... [FairfieldLife] wrote:

From: "Bhairitu ***@... mailto:***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com> mailto:***@yahoogroups.com


On 11/18/2014 04:26 AM, TurquoiseBee ***@... mailto:***@... [FairfieldLife] wrote:

It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and say, "This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of practicing TM."






What organization does?


Just to make a point about the kinds of bullshit humans are willing to accept, think about the TM sales pitch for enlightenment, compared to almost anything else being sold on this planet:


-- "So, that's your introductory lecture. Just sign here, pay us your $75, and we promise you that you will be fully enlightened in five years." (Please note that this actually *happened* with the TM movement.)


-- "Sounds good, but looking into my crystal ball that shows me the future, I can see that what you're trying to sell me isn't going to cost me only $75, but tens of thousands of dollars over 30 or 40 years, to pay for all the extra courses and 'add-ons' you'll try to sell me. What can you show me to convince me that this 'enlightenment' you're trying to sell me will actually occur, and that if it does, it's worth it?


-- "Well, you just have to trust us. Give us your money now, and in 5 to 8 years (ooops, sorry about that) you'll be enlightened. And you've heard the lectures -- when you're enlightened, you'll be able to know everything and have everything you want just by wanting it. Isn't that worth the hundreds of thousands of dollars (ooops again) you'll wind up paying us?"


-- "It *might* be worth it, but what can you show me to prove to me that this 'enlightenment' you're selling me actually exists? For example, there are many people here in the room today who have been practicing TM for more than 8 years, the maximum time you say it will take to become enlightened. Point out the ones who are enlightened, and let me talk to them to figure out if this is all going to be worth it."


-- "Sorry. <insert reverential tone of bullshit here> 'We don't talk about our individual state of consciousness.'"


-- "WTF? So you're saying that I just have to TRUST you about all this enlightenment stuff, and you are NEVER going to show me anyone who you can guarantee has achieved it?"


-- "That's right."


-- "You DO know that this is insane, right? Promising the 'fastest path' to something you'll later refuse to ever produce?"


-- "You think WE'RE insane? Talk to the millions of people who bought this exact sales pitch hook, line, and sinker."



:-)













It's a "path to enlightenment" but my point was that no organization I know of guarantees it. You can't. It even goes against TM teaching because one's progress is dependent on the state of their nervous system. And by no means would it be the fastest. It really is just a meditation for the masses. It's nothing special other than it was probably better organized than some of the other front runners.



Bhairitu, it's not "guaranteeing enlightenment" that I'm riffing on for hopefully humorous purposes. It's the promising it for 50 years and never *producing* it I'm riffing on.


That, and the fact that they got away with it because their clientele was too stupid to ever say, "Now wait a minute...where are all these enlightened people you promised me I'd be surrounded by and be one of? Point them out to me. Show me an enlightened person."







Someone saying that -- *anyone* saying that -- would have been the counterpart of the line in the fairy tale that goes, "Uh, guys...you *have* noticed that the Emperor has no clothes on, right?" Asked to put up or shut up and actually *produce* a "certified TM enlightened person," the TMO wouldn't have been able to do so.



It's all a house of cards perpetuated by the fact that no one ever says, "Show me an enlightened person."
steve.sundur@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-19 12:54:46 UTC
Permalink
that is funny Jim. a very simple, yet relevant observation.

yes, Barry has embarked on the path that has enlightenment as it's conclusion, but just can't handle that someone may have reached the goal.


maybe along the lines, "if I can't have it, no one can".


really, a childish attitude, indicating one might be stuck in a early stage of development.





---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

"'I think it's unfortunate that a person can spend hour after hour, day after day, year after year, dedicating his life to enlightenment, and yet the very notion that anybody attains enlightenment is a taboo. We're all going after this; but God forbid somebody says they've realized it. We don't believe them, we're cynical, we have doubt; we go immediately into a semi- (or overt) attack mode. To me, it highlights the fact that people are chasing an awakening they don't believe could happen to them. That's a barrier, and the biggest one..."

An excellent insight. I enjoy Adyashanti's clarity. He also comes from a town in the Bay Area that I am very familiar with, so it gives me an insight into his temperament.


This is exactly why I talk about enlightenment - It is possible, and even likely, to realize enlightenment, using the TM and TMSP techniques, and not just by saintly folks, but by ordinary schlubs, like me!


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

The Zen trained Adyashanti had this to say about 'enlightenment success':

'When I looked around at the Buddhist tradition, I realized that the success rate was terrible. People were in it for enlightenment, but very few were actually getting enlightened. If this were a business, I thought, we'd be bankrupt.'


'I think it's unfortunate that a person can spend hour after hour, day after day, year after year, dedicating his life to enlightenment, and yet the very notion that anybody attains enlightenment is a taboo. We're all going after this; but God forbid somebody says they've realized it. We don't believe them, we're cynical, we have doubt; we go immediately into a semi- (or overt) attack mode. To me, it highlights the fact that people are chasing an awakening they don't believe could happen to them. That's a barrier, and the biggest one... And when people have breakthroughs and talk about them in public, awakening loses its mystique. Everyone else can see that it's not just special people who have deep awakenings, it's their neighbor or their best friend.'


The TMO seemed to do pretty well for a while selling something nobody seems to have found. Perhaps one reason for this is the ideas we have in our heads about what enlightenment is supposed to be. The usual ideas about what enlightenment is, are something out of a comic book, something fantastical. Maybe it is something not quite so interesting to talk about, something so familiar that you discount it entirely.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

MJ, speak for yourself! I was never chasing enlightenment. I simply wanted to fulfill my desires.


From: "Michael Jackson ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor



And yet from the very beginning of the Movement till about the 1980's enlightenment was what we were all chasing and what Marshy emphasized over and over. Till it became obvious that no one was getting enlightened even with the 10,000 times more powerful than TM TMSP program so he switched to world peace.





From: "Share Long ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor



First of all, I'm familiar with spiritual groups who proclaim people enlightened. I didn't always agree with their proclamations! And as mentioned, I know of a group who gives certificates of enlightenment. Maybe they use different criteria than me! I also know people in the TMO who I think are pretty darn enlightened. But of course they don't proclaim themselves as such.

The whole thing is such a hodge podge that I simply ignore all the posturing and go by my own sense of a person. And actually, it doesn't matter to me whether or not they're "enlightened." There are other qualities that I value more.



From: "TurquoiseBee ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor



From: "Bhairitu ***@... [FairfieldLife]"




On 11/18/2014 09:17 AM, TurquoiseBee ***@... mailto:***@... [FairfieldLife] wrote:

From: "Bhairitu ***@... mailto:***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com> mailto:***@yahoogroups.com


On 11/18/2014 04:26 AM, TurquoiseBee ***@... mailto:***@... [FairfieldLife] wrote:

It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and say, "This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of practicing TM."






What organization does?


Just to make a point about the kinds of bullshit humans are willing to accept, think about the TM sales pitch for enlightenment, compared to almost anything else being sold on this planet:


-- "So, that's your introductory lecture. Just sign here, pay us your $75, and we promise you that you will be fully enlightened in five years." (Please note that this actually *happened* with the TM movement.)


-- "Sounds good, but looking into my crystal ball that shows me the future, I can see that what you're trying to sell me isn't going to cost me only $75, but tens of thousands of dollars over 30 or 40 years, to pay for all the extra courses and 'add-ons' you'll try to sell me. What can you show me to convince me that this 'enlightenment' you're trying to sell me will actually occur, and that if it does, it's worth it?


-- "Well, you just have to trust us. Give us your money now, and in 5 to 8 years (ooops, sorry about that) you'll be enlightened. And you've heard the lectures -- when you're enlightened, you'll be able to know everything and have everything you want just by wanting it. Isn't that worth the hundreds of thousands of dollars (ooops again) you'll wind up paying us?"


-- "It *might* be worth it, but what can you show me to prove to me that this 'enlightenment' you're selling me actually exists? For example, there are many people here in the room today who have been practicing TM for more than 8 years, the maximum time you say it will take to become enlightened. Point out the ones who are enlightened, and let me talk to them to figure out if this is all going to be worth it."


-- "Sorry. <insert reverential tone of bullshit here> 'We don't talk about our individual state of consciousness.'"


-- "WTF? So you're saying that I just have to TRUST you about all this enlightenment stuff, and you are NEVER going to show me anyone who you can guarantee has achieved it?"


-- "That's right."


-- "You DO know that this is insane, right? Promising the 'fastest path' to something you'll later refuse to ever produce?"


-- "You think WE'RE insane? Talk to the millions of people who bought this exact sales pitch hook, line, and sinker."



:-)













It's a "path to enlightenment" but my point was that no organization I know of guarantees it. You can't. It even goes against TM teaching because one's progress is dependent on the state of their nervous system. And by no means would it be the fastest. It really is just a meditation for the masses. It's nothing special other than it was probably better organized than some of the other front runners.



Bhairitu, it's not "guaranteeing enlightenment" that I'm riffing on for hopefully humorous purposes. It's the promising it for 50 years and never *producing* it I'm riffing on.


That, and the fact that they got away with it because their clientele was too stupid to ever say, "Now wait a minute...where are all these enlightened people you promised me I'd be surrounded by and be one of? Point them out to me. Show me an enlightened person."







Someone saying that -- *anyone* saying that -- would have been the counterpart of the line in the fairy tale that goes, "Uh, guys...you *have* noticed that the Emperor has no clothes on, right?" Asked to put up or shut up and actually *produce* a "certified TM enlightened person," the TMO wouldn't have been able to do so.



It's all a house of cards perpetuated by the fact that no one ever says, "Show me an enlightened person."
fleetwood_macncheese@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-19 13:22:19 UTC
Permalink
Barry, The Cave Boy from Leiden, raised by wolves, was the first image that came up - lol

seriously, people get locked into all the past pictures of enlightened teachers, and even Maharishi was not exactly a slacks and polo type of guy. And the religions have fucked up the image for good, insisting that solely doing good works (according to them), keeping in line, reading surface prayers, and mouthing platitudes about "helping the poor" and being "nice", will lead to our salvation. So it is a lot of context for us to overcome, to truly gain our freedom, our inner silence, and continue to be ourselves - even though that is the simple end result of enlightenment - fully being ourselves.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

that is funny Jim. a very simple, yet relevant observation.

yes, Barry has embarked on the path that has enlightenment as it's conclusion, but just can't handle that someone may have reached the goal.


maybe along the lines, "if I can't have it, no one can".


really, a childish attitude, indicating one might be stuck in a early stage of development.





---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

"'I think it's unfortunate that a person can spend hour after hour, day after day, year after year, dedicating his life to enlightenment, and yet the very notion that anybody attains enlightenment is a taboo. We're all going after this; but God forbid somebody says they've realized it. We don't believe them, we're cynical, we have doubt; we go immediately into a semi- (or overt) attack mode. To me, it highlights the fact that people are chasing an awakening they don't believe could happen to them. That's a barrier, and the biggest one..."

An excellent insight. I enjoy Adyashanti's clarity. He also comes from a town in the Bay Area that I am very familiar with, so it gives me an insight into his temperament.


This is exactly why I talk about enlightenment - It is possible, and even likely, to realize enlightenment, using the TM and TMSP techniques, and not just by saintly folks, but by ordinary schlubs, like me!


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

The Zen trained Adyashanti had this to say about 'enlightenment success':

'When I looked around at the Buddhist tradition, I realized that the success rate was terrible. People were in it for enlightenment, but very few were actually getting enlightened. If this were a business, I thought, we'd be bankrupt.'


'I think it's unfortunate that a person can spend hour after hour, day after day, year after year, dedicating his life to enlightenment, and yet the very notion that anybody attains enlightenment is a taboo. We're all going after this; but God forbid somebody says they've realized it. We don't believe them, we're cynical, we have doubt; we go immediately into a semi- (or overt) attack mode. To me, it highlights the fact that people are chasing an awakening they don't believe could happen to them. That's a barrier, and the biggest one... And when people have breakthroughs and talk about them in public, awakening loses its mystique. Everyone else can see that it's not just special people who have deep awakenings, it's their neighbor or their best friend.'


The TMO seemed to do pretty well for a while selling something nobody seems to have found. Perhaps one reason for this is the ideas we have in our heads about what enlightenment is supposed to be. The usual ideas about what enlightenment is, are something out of a comic book, something fantastical. Maybe it is something not quite so interesting to talk about, something so familiar that you discount it entirely.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

MJ, speak for yourself! I was never chasing enlightenment. I simply wanted to fulfill my desires.


From: "Michael Jackson ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor



And yet from the very beginning of the Movement till about the 1980's enlightenment was what we were all chasing and what Marshy emphasized over and over. Till it became obvious that no one was getting enlightened even with the 10,000 times more powerful than TM TMSP program so he switched to world peace.





From: "Share Long ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor



First of all, I'm familiar with spiritual groups who proclaim people enlightened. I didn't always agree with their proclamations! And as mentioned, I know of a group who gives certificates of enlightenment. Maybe they use different criteria than me! I also know people in the TMO who I think are pretty darn enlightened. But of course they don't proclaim themselves as such.

The whole thing is such a hodge podge that I simply ignore all the posturing and go by my own sense of a person. And actually, it doesn't matter to me whether or not they're "enlightened." There are other qualities that I value more.



From: "TurquoiseBee ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor



From: "Bhairitu ***@... [FairfieldLife]"




On 11/18/2014 09:17 AM, TurquoiseBee ***@... mailto:***@... [FairfieldLife] wrote:

From: "Bhairitu ***@... mailto:***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com> mailto:***@yahoogroups.com


On 11/18/2014 04:26 AM, TurquoiseBee ***@... mailto:***@... [FairfieldLife] wrote:

It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and say, "This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of practicing TM."






What organization does?


Just to make a point about the kinds of bullshit humans are willing to accept, think about the TM sales pitch for enlightenment, compared to almost anything else being sold on this planet:


-- "So, that's your introductory lecture. Just sign here, pay us your $75, and we promise you that you will be fully enlightened in five years." (Please note that this actually *happened* with the TM movement.)


-- "Sounds good, but looking into my crystal ball that shows me the future, I can see that what you're trying to sell me isn't going to cost me only $75, but tens of thousands of dollars over 30 or 40 years, to pay for all the extra courses and 'add-ons' you'll try to sell me. What can you show me to convince me that this 'enlightenment' you're trying to sell me will actually occur, and that if it does, it's worth it?


-- "Well, you just have to trust us. Give us your money now, and in 5 to 8 years (ooops, sorry about that) you'll be enlightened. And you've heard the lectures -- when you're enlightened, you'll be able to know everything and have everything you want just by wanting it. Isn't that worth the hundreds of thousands of dollars (ooops again) you'll wind up paying us?"


-- "It *might* be worth it, but what can you show me to prove to me that this 'enlightenment' you're selling me actually exists? For example, there are many people here in the room today who have been practicing TM for more than 8 years, the maximum time you say it will take to become enlightened. Point out the ones who are enlightened, and let me talk to them to figure out if this is all going to be worth it."


-- "Sorry. <insert reverential tone of bullshit here> 'We don't talk about our individual state of consciousness.'"


-- "WTF? So you're saying that I just have to TRUST you about all this enlightenment stuff, and you are NEVER going to show me anyone who you can guarantee has achieved it?"


-- "That's right."


-- "You DO know that this is insane, right? Promising the 'fastest path' to something you'll later refuse to ever produce?"


-- "You think WE'RE insane? Talk to the millions of people who bought this exact sales pitch hook, line, and sinker."



:-)













It's a "path to enlightenment" but my point was that no organization I know of guarantees it. You can't. It even goes against TM teaching because one's progress is dependent on the state of their nervous system. And by no means would it be the fastest. It really is just a meditation for the masses. It's nothing special other than it was probably better organized than some of the other front runners.



Bhairitu, it's not "guaranteeing enlightenment" that I'm riffing on for hopefully humorous purposes. It's the promising it for 50 years and never *producing* it I'm riffing on.


That, and the fact that they got away with it because their clientele was too stupid to ever say, "Now wait a minute...where are all these enlightened people you promised me I'd be surrounded by and be one of? Point them out to me. Show me an enlightened person."







Someone saying that -- *anyone* saying that -- would have been the counterpart of the line in the fairy tale that goes, "Uh, guys...you *have* noticed that the Emperor has no clothes on, right?" Asked to put up or shut up and actually *produce* a "certified TM enlightened person," the TMO wouldn't have been able to do so.



It's all a house of cards perpetuated by the fact that no one ever says, "Show me an enlightened person."
fleetwood_macncheese@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-19 13:37:14 UTC
Permalink
So, there has never been a model, of how an enlightened person acts, as a householder. Maharishi brought out a lot of elements regarding diet, architecture, health, and even fashion (saris and crowns, robes and cream colored suits) that although provocative, and even quietly revolutionary, will only be adopted by a tiny minority. The trick is to weave an enlightened life within our own culture, and culture in the West favors the individual, so we are back to square one. :-)
---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

Barry, The Cave Boy from Leiden, raised by wolves, was the first image that came up - lol

seriously, people get locked into all the past pictures of enlightened teachers, and even Maharishi was not exactly a slacks and polo type of guy. And the religions have fucked up the image for good, insisting that solely doing good works (according to them), keeping in line, reading surface prayers, and mouthing platitudes about "helping the poor" and being "nice", will lead to our salvation. So it is a lot of context for us to overcome, to truly gain our freedom, our inner silence, and continue to be ourselves - even though that is the simple end result of enlightenment - fully being ourselves.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

that is funny Jim. a very simple, yet relevant observation.

yes, Barry has embarked on the path that has enlightenment as it's conclusion, but just can't handle that someone may have reached the goal.


maybe along the lines, "if I can't have it, no one can".


really, a childish attitude, indicating one might be stuck in a early stage of development.





---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

"'I think it's unfortunate that a person can spend hour after hour, day after day, year after year, dedicating his life to enlightenment, and yet the very notion that anybody attains enlightenment is a taboo. We're all going after this; but God forbid somebody says they've realized it. We don't believe them, we're cynical, we have doubt; we go immediately into a semi- (or overt) attack mode. To me, it highlights the fact that people are chasing an awakening they don't believe could happen to them. That's a barrier, and the biggest one..."

An excellent insight. I enjoy Adyashanti's clarity. He also comes from a town in the Bay Area that I am very familiar with, so it gives me an insight into his temperament.


This is exactly why I talk about enlightenment - It is possible, and even likely, to realize enlightenment, using the TM and TMSP techniques, and not just by saintly folks, but by ordinary schlubs, like me!


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

The Zen trained Adyashanti had this to say about 'enlightenment success':

'When I looked around at the Buddhist tradition, I realized that the success rate was terrible. People were in it for enlightenment, but very few were actually getting enlightened. If this were a business, I thought, we'd be bankrupt.'


'I think it's unfortunate that a person can spend hour after hour, day after day, year after year, dedicating his life to enlightenment, and yet the very notion that anybody attains enlightenment is a taboo. We're all going after this; but God forbid somebody says they've realized it. We don't believe them, we're cynical, we have doubt; we go immediately into a semi- (or overt) attack mode. To me, it highlights the fact that people are chasing an awakening they don't believe could happen to them. That's a barrier, and the biggest one... And when people have breakthroughs and talk about them in public, awakening loses its mystique. Everyone else can see that it's not just special people who have deep awakenings, it's their neighbor or their best friend.'


The TMO seemed to do pretty well for a while selling something nobody seems to have found. Perhaps one reason for this is the ideas we have in our heads about what enlightenment is supposed to be. The usual ideas about what enlightenment is, are something out of a comic book, something fantastical. Maybe it is something not quite so interesting to talk about, something so familiar that you discount it entirely.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

MJ, speak for yourself! I was never chasing enlightenment. I simply wanted to fulfill my desires.


From: "Michael Jackson ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor



And yet from the very beginning of the Movement till about the 1980's enlightenment was what we were all chasing and what Marshy emphasized over and over. Till it became obvious that no one was getting enlightened even with the 10,000 times more powerful than TM TMSP program so he switched to world peace.





From: "Share Long ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor



First of all, I'm familiar with spiritual groups who proclaim people enlightened. I didn't always agree with their proclamations! And as mentioned, I know of a group who gives certificates of enlightenment. Maybe they use different criteria than me! I also know people in the TMO who I think are pretty darn enlightened. But of course they don't proclaim themselves as such.

The whole thing is such a hodge podge that I simply ignore all the posturing and go by my own sense of a person. And actually, it doesn't matter to me whether or not they're "enlightened." There are other qualities that I value more.



From: "TurquoiseBee ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor



From: "Bhairitu ***@... [FairfieldLife]"




On 11/18/2014 09:17 AM, TurquoiseBee ***@... mailto:***@... [FairfieldLife] wrote:

From: "Bhairitu ***@... mailto:***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com> mailto:***@yahoogroups.com


On 11/18/2014 04:26 AM, TurquoiseBee ***@... mailto:***@... [FairfieldLife] wrote:

It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and say, "This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of practicing TM."






What organization does?


Just to make a point about the kinds of bullshit humans are willing to accept, think about the TM sales pitch for enlightenment, compared to almost anything else being sold on this planet:


-- "So, that's your introductory lecture. Just sign here, pay us your $75, and we promise you that you will be fully enlightened in five years." (Please note that this actually *happened* with the TM movement.)


-- "Sounds good, but looking into my crystal ball that shows me the future, I can see that what you're trying to sell me isn't going to cost me only $75, but tens of thousands of dollars over 30 or 40 years, to pay for all the extra courses and 'add-ons' you'll try to sell me. What can you show me to convince me that this 'enlightenment' you're trying to sell me will actually occur, and that if it does, it's worth it?


-- "Well, you just have to trust us. Give us your money now, and in 5 to 8 years (ooops, sorry about that) you'll be enlightened. And you've heard the lectures -- when you're enlightened, you'll be able to know everything and have everything you want just by wanting it. Isn't that worth the hundreds of thousands of dollars (ooops again) you'll wind up paying us?"


-- "It *might* be worth it, but what can you show me to prove to me that this 'enlightenment' you're selling me actually exists? For example, there are many people here in the room today who have been practicing TM for more than 8 years, the maximum time you say it will take to become enlightened. Point out the ones who are enlightened, and let me talk to them to figure out if this is all going to be worth it."


-- "Sorry. <insert reverential tone of bullshit here> 'We don't talk about our individual state of consciousness.'"


-- "WTF? So you're saying that I just have to TRUST you about all this enlightenment stuff, and you are NEVER going to show me anyone who you can guarantee has achieved it?"


-- "That's right."


-- "You DO know that this is insane, right? Promising the 'fastest path' to something you'll later refuse to ever produce?"


-- "You think WE'RE insane? Talk to the millions of people who bought this exact sales pitch hook, line, and sinker."



:-)













It's a "path to enlightenment" but my point was that no organization I know of guarantees it. You can't. It even goes against TM teaching because one's progress is dependent on the state of their nervous system. And by no means would it be the fastest. It really is just a meditation for the masses. It's nothing special other than it was probably better organized than some of the other front runners.



Bhairitu, it's not "guaranteeing enlightenment" that I'm riffing on for hopefully humorous purposes. It's the promising it for 50 years and never *producing* it I'm riffing on.


That, and the fact that they got away with it because their clientele was too stupid to ever say, "Now wait a minute...where are all these enlightened people you promised me I'd be surrounded by and be one of? Point them out to me. Show me an enlightened person."







Someone saying that -- *anyone* saying that -- would have been the counterpart of the line in the fairy tale that goes, "Uh, guys...you *have* noticed that the Emperor has no clothes on, right?" Asked to put up or shut up and actually *produce* a "certified TM enlightened person," the TMO wouldn't have been able to do so.



It's all a house of cards perpetuated by the fact that no one ever says, "Show me an enlightened person."
awoelflebater@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-19 16:06:35 UTC
Permalink
---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

So, there has never been a model, of how an enlightened person acts, as a householder. Maharishi brought out a lot of elements regarding diet, architecture, health, and even fashion (saris and crowns, robes and cream colored suits) that although provocative, and even quietly revolutionary, will only be adopted by a tiny minority. The trick is to weave an enlightened life within our own culture, and culture in the West favors the individual, so we are back to square one. :-)


This is what I don't get, the idea that some people have that you can know who is "enlightened" and who isn't. The fact that they can have this ingrained set of ideas of how enlightened people act is quite hilarious. I mean, on what are these ideas based? Where did they come from? It seems like if enlightened people were to follow the 'guidelines' of what some here seem to think enlightenment means you'd be the most boring person on the planet. Perhaps their ideas are along the lines of acting like some bookish saint, doing plenty of volunteer time at your local food kitchen and ASPCA, donating a few organs and baking pies and casseroles for the neighborhood after having built your neighbor's barn and knitted a slew of sweaters for the needy. I say most have very old fashioned and limited views on this enlightenment business. What, an enlightened person can show anger or impatience? Pish posh.
awoelflebater@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-19 16:13:38 UTC
Permalink
---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :




---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

So, there has never been a model, of how an enlightened person acts, as a householder. Maharishi brought out a lot of elements regarding diet, architecture, health, and even fashion (saris and crowns, robes and cream colored suits) that although provocative, and even quietly revolutionary, will only be adopted by a tiny minority. The trick is to weave an enlightened life within our own culture, and culture in the West favors the individual, so we are back to square one. :-)


This is what I don't get, the idea that some people have that you can know who is "enlightened" and who isn't. The fact that they can have this ingrained set of ideas of how enlightened people act is quite hilarious. I mean, on what are these ideas based? Where did they come from? It seems like if enlightened people were to follow the 'guidelines' of what some here seem to think enlightenment means you'd be the most boring person on the planet. Perhaps their ideas are along the lines of acting like some bookish saint, doing plenty of volunteer time at your local food kitchen and ASPCA, donating a few organs and baking pies and casseroles for the neighborhood after having built your neighbor's barn and knitted a slew of sweaters for the needy. I say most have very old fashioned and limited views on this enlightenment business. What, an enlightened person can (correction: "can't") show anger or impatience? Pish posh.
fleetwood_macncheese@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-19 16:35:43 UTC
Permalink
Yep. Seems like the idea of average people like me walking around enlightened, with the ability to act in a spontaneous way, is frightening to some. Must be an ego thing.

---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :




---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

So, there has never been a model, of how an enlightened person acts, as a householder. Maharishi brought out a lot of elements regarding diet, architecture, health, and even fashion (saris and crowns, robes and cream colored suits) that although provocative, and even quietly revolutionary, will only be adopted by a tiny minority. The trick is to weave an enlightened life within our own culture, and culture in the West favors the individual, so we are back to square one. :-)


This is what I don't get, the idea that some people have that you can know who is "enlightened" and who isn't. The fact that they can have this ingrained set of ideas of how enlightened people act is quite hilarious. I mean, on what are these ideas based? Where did they come from? It seems like if enlightened people were to follow the 'guidelines' of what some here seem to think enlightenment means you'd be the most boring person on the planet. Perhaps their ideas are along the lines of acting like some bookish saint, doing plenty of volunteer time at your local food kitchen and ASPCA, donating a few organs and baking pies and casseroles for the neighborhood after having built your neighbor's barn and knitted a slew of sweaters for the needy. I say most have very old fashioned and limited views on this enlightenment business. What, an enlightened person can show anger or impatience? Pish posh.
awoelflebater@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-19 16:41:51 UTC
Permalink
---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

Yep. Seems like the idea of average people like me walking around enlightened, with the ability to act in a spontaneous way, is frightening to some. Must be an ego thing.


I think it's lack of vision and, yes, envy.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :




---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

So, there has never been a model, of how an enlightened person acts, as a householder. Maharishi brought out a lot of elements regarding diet, architecture, health, and even fashion (saris and crowns, robes and cream colored suits) that although provocative, and even quietly revolutionary, will only be adopted by a tiny minority. The trick is to weave an enlightened life within our own culture, and culture in the West favors the individual, so we are back to square one. :-)


This is what I don't get, the idea that some people have that you can know who is "enlightened" and who isn't. The fact that they can have this ingrained set of ideas of how enlightened people act is quite hilarious. I mean, on what are these ideas based? Where did they come from? It seems like if enlightened people were to follow the 'guidelines' of what some here seem to think enlightenment means you'd be the most boring person on the planet. Perhaps their ideas are along the lines of acting like some bookish saint, doing plenty of volunteer time at your local food kitchen and ASPCA, donating a few organs and baking pies and casseroles for the neighborhood after having built your neighbor's barn and knitted a slew of sweaters for the needy. I say most have very old fashioned and limited views on this enlightenment business. What, an enlightened person can show anger or impatience? Pish posh.
fleetwood_macncheese@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-19 16:47:18 UTC
Permalink
I never understood envy - what a useless emotion. Envy must be nature's way of saying, "Get off your butt, and Do Something".


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :




---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

Yep. Seems like the idea of average people like me walking around enlightened, with the ability to act in a spontaneous way, is frightening to some. Must be an ego thing.


I think it's lack of vision and, yes, envy.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :




---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

So, there has never been a model, of how an enlightened person acts, as a householder. Maharishi brought out a lot of elements regarding diet, architecture, health, and even fashion (saris and crowns, robes and cream colored suits) that although provocative, and even quietly revolutionary, will only be adopted by a tiny minority. The trick is to weave an enlightened life within our own culture, and culture in the West favors the individual, so we are back to square one. :-)


This is what I don't get, the idea that some people have that you can know who is "enlightened" and who isn't. The fact that they can have this ingrained set of ideas of how enlightened people act is quite hilarious. I mean, on what are these ideas based? Where did they come from? It seems like if enlightened people were to follow the 'guidelines' of what some here seem to think enlightenment means you'd be the most boring person on the planet. Perhaps their ideas are along the lines of acting like some bookish saint, doing plenty of volunteer time at your local food kitchen and ASPCA, donating a few organs and baking pies and casseroles for the neighborhood after having built your neighbor's barn and knitted a slew of sweaters for the needy. I say most have very old fashioned and limited views on this enlightenment business. What, an enlightened person can show anger or impatience? Pish posh.
steve.sundur@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-19 13:39:47 UTC
Permalink
yes, cognitive dissonance once we realize that the enlightened state does have all the outer attributes we associate with it.

I have cognitive dissonance along these lines myself that I am working through, or in the discover phase of.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

Barry, The Cave Boy from Leiden, raised by wolves, was the first image that came up - lol

seriously, people get locked into all the past pictures of enlightened teachers, and even Maharishi was not exactly a slacks and polo type of guy. And the religions have fucked up the image for good, insisting that solely doing good works (according to them), keeping in line, reading surface prayers, and mouthing platitudes about "helping the poor" and being "nice", will lead to our salvation. So it is a lot of context for us to overcome, to truly gain our freedom, our inner silence, and continue to be ourselves - even though that is the simple end result of enlightenment - fully being ourselves.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

that is funny Jim. a very simple, yet relevant observation.

yes, Barry has embarked on the path that has enlightenment as it's conclusion, but just can't handle that someone may have reached the goal.


maybe along the lines, "if I can't have it, no one can".


really, a childish attitude, indicating one might be stuck in a early stage of development.





---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

"'I think it's unfortunate that a person can spend hour after hour, day after day, year after year, dedicating his life to enlightenment, and yet the very notion that anybody attains enlightenment is a taboo. We're all going after this; but God forbid somebody says they've realized it. We don't believe them, we're cynical, we have doubt; we go immediately into a semi- (or overt) attack mode. To me, it highlights the fact that people are chasing an awakening they don't believe could happen to them. That's a barrier, and the biggest one..."

An excellent insight. I enjoy Adyashanti's clarity. He also comes from a town in the Bay Area that I am very familiar with, so it gives me an insight into his temperament.


This is exactly why I talk about enlightenment - It is possible, and even likely, to realize enlightenment, using the TM and TMSP techniques, and not just by saintly folks, but by ordinary schlubs, like me!


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

The Zen trained Adyashanti had this to say about 'enlightenment success':

'When I looked around at the Buddhist tradition, I realized that the success rate was terrible. People were in it for enlightenment, but very few were actually getting enlightened. If this were a business, I thought, we'd be bankrupt.'


'I think it's unfortunate that a person can spend hour after hour, day after day, year after year, dedicating his life to enlightenment, and yet the very notion that anybody attains enlightenment is a taboo. We're all going after this; but God forbid somebody says they've realized it. We don't believe them, we're cynical, we have doubt; we go immediately into a semi- (or overt) attack mode. To me, it highlights the fact that people are chasing an awakening they don't believe could happen to them. That's a barrier, and the biggest one... And when people have breakthroughs and talk about them in public, awakening loses its mystique. Everyone else can see that it's not just special people who have deep awakenings, it's their neighbor or their best friend.'


The TMO seemed to do pretty well for a while selling something nobody seems to have found. Perhaps one reason for this is the ideas we have in our heads about what enlightenment is supposed to be. The usual ideas about what enlightenment is, are something out of a comic book, something fantastical. Maybe it is something not quite so interesting to talk about, something so familiar that you discount it entirely.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

MJ, speak for yourself! I was never chasing enlightenment. I simply wanted to fulfill my desires.


From: "Michael Jackson ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor



And yet from the very beginning of the Movement till about the 1980's enlightenment was what we were all chasing and what Marshy emphasized over and over. Till it became obvious that no one was getting enlightened even with the 10,000 times more powerful than TM TMSP program so he switched to world peace.





From: "Share Long ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor



First of all, I'm familiar with spiritual groups who proclaim people enlightened. I didn't always agree with their proclamations! And as mentioned, I know of a group who gives certificates of enlightenment. Maybe they use different criteria than me! I also know people in the TMO who I think are pretty darn enlightened. But of course they don't proclaim themselves as such.

The whole thing is such a hodge podge that I simply ignore all the posturing and go by my own sense of a person. And actually, it doesn't matter to me whether or not they're "enlightened." There are other qualities that I value more.



From: "TurquoiseBee ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor



From: "Bhairitu ***@... [FairfieldLife]"




On 11/18/2014 09:17 AM, TurquoiseBee ***@... mailto:***@... [FairfieldLife] wrote:

From: "Bhairitu ***@... mailto:***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com> mailto:***@yahoogroups.com


On 11/18/2014 04:26 AM, TurquoiseBee ***@... mailto:***@... [FairfieldLife] wrote:

It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and say, "This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of practicing TM."






What organization does?


Just to make a point about the kinds of bullshit humans are willing to accept, think about the TM sales pitch for enlightenment, compared to almost anything else being sold on this planet:


-- "So, that's your introductory lecture. Just sign here, pay us your $75, and we promise you that you will be fully enlightened in five years." (Please note that this actually *happened* with the TM movement.)


-- "Sounds good, but looking into my crystal ball that shows me the future, I can see that what you're trying to sell me isn't going to cost me only $75, but tens of thousands of dollars over 30 or 40 years, to pay for all the extra courses and 'add-ons' you'll try to sell me. What can you show me to convince me that this 'enlightenment' you're trying to sell me will actually occur, and that if it does, it's worth it?


-- "Well, you just have to trust us. Give us your money now, and in 5 to 8 years (ooops, sorry about that) you'll be enlightened. And you've heard the lectures -- when you're enlightened, you'll be able to know everything and have everything you want just by wanting it. Isn't that worth the hundreds of thousands of dollars (ooops again) you'll wind up paying us?"


-- "It *might* be worth it, but what can you show me to prove to me that this 'enlightenment' you're selling me actually exists? For example, there are many people here in the room today who have been practicing TM for more than 8 years, the maximum time you say it will take to become enlightened. Point out the ones who are enlightened, and let me talk to them to figure out if this is all going to be worth it."


-- "Sorry. <insert reverential tone of bullshit here> 'We don't talk about our individual state of consciousness.'"


-- "WTF? So you're saying that I just have to TRUST you about all this enlightenment stuff, and you are NEVER going to show me anyone who you can guarantee has achieved it?"


-- "That's right."


-- "You DO know that this is insane, right? Promising the 'fastest path' to something you'll later refuse to ever produce?"


-- "You think WE'RE insane? Talk to the millions of people who bought this exact sales pitch hook, line, and sinker."



:-)













It's a "path to enlightenment" but my point was that no organization I know of guarantees it. You can't. It even goes against TM teaching because one's progress is dependent on the state of their nervous system. And by no means would it be the fastest. It really is just a meditation for the masses. It's nothing special other than it was probably better organized than some of the other front runners.



Bhairitu, it's not "guaranteeing enlightenment" that I'm riffing on for hopefully humorous purposes. It's the promising it for 50 years and never *producing* it I'm riffing on.


That, and the fact that they got away with it because their clientele was too stupid to ever say, "Now wait a minute...where are all these enlightened people you promised me I'd be surrounded by and be one of? Point them out to me. Show me an enlightened person."







Someone saying that -- *anyone* saying that -- would have been the counterpart of the line in the fairy tale that goes, "Uh, guys...you *have* noticed that the Emperor has no clothes on, right?" Asked to put up or shut up and actually *produce* a "certified TM enlightened person," the TMO wouldn't have been able to do so.



It's all a house of cards perpetuated by the fact that no one ever says, "Show me an enlightened person."
fleetwood_macncheese@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-19 13:48:01 UTC
Permalink
Yes, the thing goes full circle, from chasing the dream of enlightenment, to gaining the reality of enlightenment (and losing the former dream of enlightenment), and finally, having the enlightenment recreate the dream, in reality.
---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

yes, cognitive dissonance once we realize that the enlightened state does have all the outer attributes we associate with it.

I have cognitive dissonance along these lines myself that I am working through, or in the discover phase of.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

Barry, The Cave Boy from Leiden, raised by wolves, was the first image that came up - lol

seriously, people get locked into all the past pictures of enlightened teachers, and even Maharishi was not exactly a slacks and polo type of guy. And the religions have fucked up the image for good, insisting that solely doing good works (according to them), keeping in line, reading surface prayers, and mouthing platitudes about "helping the poor" and being "nice", will lead to our salvation. So it is a lot of context for us to overcome, to truly gain our freedom, our inner silence, and continue to be ourselves - even though that is the simple end result of enlightenment - fully being ourselves.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

that is funny Jim. a very simple, yet relevant observation.

yes, Barry has embarked on the path that has enlightenment as it's conclusion, but just can't handle that someone may have reached the goal.


maybe along the lines, "if I can't have it, no one can".


really, a childish attitude, indicating one might be stuck in a early stage of development.





---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

"'I think it's unfortunate that a person can spend hour after hour, day after day, year after year, dedicating his life to enlightenment, and yet the very notion that anybody attains enlightenment is a taboo. We're all going after this; but God forbid somebody says they've realized it. We don't believe them, we're cynical, we have doubt; we go immediately into a semi- (or overt) attack mode. To me, it highlights the fact that people are chasing an awakening they don't believe could happen to them. That's a barrier, and the biggest one..."

An excellent insight. I enjoy Adyashanti's clarity. He also comes from a town in the Bay Area that I am very familiar with, so it gives me an insight into his temperament.


This is exactly why I talk about enlightenment - It is possible, and even likely, to realize enlightenment, using the TM and TMSP techniques, and not just by saintly folks, but by ordinary schlubs, like me!


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

The Zen trained Adyashanti had this to say about 'enlightenment success':

'When I looked around at the Buddhist tradition, I realized that the success rate was terrible. People were in it for enlightenment, but very few were actually getting enlightened. If this were a business, I thought, we'd be bankrupt.'


'I think it's unfortunate that a person can spend hour after hour, day after day, year after year, dedicating his life to enlightenment, and yet the very notion that anybody attains enlightenment is a taboo. We're all going after this; but God forbid somebody says they've realized it. We don't believe them, we're cynical, we have doubt; we go immediately into a semi- (or overt) attack mode. To me, it highlights the fact that people are chasing an awakening they don't believe could happen to them. That's a barrier, and the biggest one... And when people have breakthroughs and talk about them in public, awakening loses its mystique. Everyone else can see that it's not just special people who have deep awakenings, it's their neighbor or their best friend.'


The TMO seemed to do pretty well for a while selling something nobody seems to have found. Perhaps one reason for this is the ideas we have in our heads about what enlightenment is supposed to be. The usual ideas about what enlightenment is, are something out of a comic book, something fantastical. Maybe it is something not quite so interesting to talk about, something so familiar that you discount it entirely.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

MJ, speak for yourself! I was never chasing enlightenment. I simply wanted to fulfill my desires.


From: "Michael Jackson ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor



And yet from the very beginning of the Movement till about the 1980's enlightenment was what we were all chasing and what Marshy emphasized over and over. Till it became obvious that no one was getting enlightened even with the 10,000 times more powerful than TM TMSP program so he switched to world peace.





From: "Share Long ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor



First of all, I'm familiar with spiritual groups who proclaim people enlightened. I didn't always agree with their proclamations! And as mentioned, I know of a group who gives certificates of enlightenment. Maybe they use different criteria than me! I also know people in the TMO who I think are pretty darn enlightened. But of course they don't proclaim themselves as such.

The whole thing is such a hodge podge that I simply ignore all the posturing and go by my own sense of a person. And actually, it doesn't matter to me whether or not they're "enlightened." There are other qualities that I value more.



From: "TurquoiseBee ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor



From: "Bhairitu ***@... [FairfieldLife]"




On 11/18/2014 09:17 AM, TurquoiseBee ***@... mailto:***@... [FairfieldLife] wrote:

From: "Bhairitu ***@... mailto:***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com> mailto:***@yahoogroups.com


On 11/18/2014 04:26 AM, TurquoiseBee ***@... mailto:***@... [FairfieldLife] wrote:

It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and say, "This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of practicing TM."






What organization does?


Just to make a point about the kinds of bullshit humans are willing to accept, think about the TM sales pitch for enlightenment, compared to almost anything else being sold on this planet:


-- "So, that's your introductory lecture. Just sign here, pay us your $75, and we promise you that you will be fully enlightened in five years." (Please note that this actually *happened* with the TM movement.)


-- "Sounds good, but looking into my crystal ball that shows me the future, I can see that what you're trying to sell me isn't going to cost me only $75, but tens of thousands of dollars over 30 or 40 years, to pay for all the extra courses and 'add-ons' you'll try to sell me. What can you show me to convince me that this 'enlightenment' you're trying to sell me will actually occur, and that if it does, it's worth it?


-- "Well, you just have to trust us. Give us your money now, and in 5 to 8 years (ooops, sorry about that) you'll be enlightened. And you've heard the lectures -- when you're enlightened, you'll be able to know everything and have everything you want just by wanting it. Isn't that worth the hundreds of thousands of dollars (ooops again) you'll wind up paying us?"


-- "It *might* be worth it, but what can you show me to prove to me that this 'enlightenment' you're selling me actually exists? For example, there are many people here in the room today who have been practicing TM for more than 8 years, the maximum time you say it will take to become enlightened. Point out the ones who are enlightened, and let me talk to them to figure out if this is all going to be worth it."


-- "Sorry. <insert reverential tone of bullshit here> 'We don't talk about our individual state of consciousness.'"


-- "WTF? So you're saying that I just have to TRUST you about all this enlightenment stuff, and you are NEVER going to show me anyone who you can guarantee has achieved it?"


-- "That's right."


-- "You DO know that this is insane, right? Promising the 'fastest path' to something you'll later refuse to ever produce?"


-- "You think WE'RE insane? Talk to the millions of people who bought this exact sales pitch hook, line, and sinker."



:-)













It's a "path to enlightenment" but my point was that no organization I know of guarantees it. You can't. It even goes against TM teaching because one's progress is dependent on the state of their nervous system. And by no means would it be the fastest. It really is just a meditation for the masses. It's nothing special other than it was probably better organized than some of the other front runners.



Bhairitu, it's not "guaranteeing enlightenment" that I'm riffing on for hopefully humorous purposes. It's the promising it for 50 years and never *producing* it I'm riffing on.


That, and the fact that they got away with it because their clientele was too stupid to ever say, "Now wait a minute...where are all these enlightened people you promised me I'd be surrounded by and be one of? Point them out to me. Show me an enlightened person."







Someone saying that -- *anyone* saying that -- would have been the counterpart of the line in the fairy tale that goes, "Uh, guys...you *have* noticed that the Emperor has no clothes on, right?" Asked to put up or shut up and actually *produce* a "certified TM enlightened person," the TMO wouldn't have been able to do so.



It's all a house of cards perpetuated by the fact that no one ever says, "Show me an enlightened person."
nablusoss1008
2014-11-19 15:01:36 UTC
Permalink
This fellow obviously met a lot of resentment from Buddhists stuck in the sing-song-have-compassion-bang-those-bells-till-you-puke tradition. The same sort of resentment, even hate, that Fleetwood meets on this forum. Not that it seems to bother him much :-)
Great quote !
"'I think it's unfortunate that a person can spend hour after hour, day after day, year after year, dedicating his life to enlightenment, and yet the very notion that anybody attains enlightenment is a taboo. We're all going after this; but God forbid somebody says they've realized it. We don't believe them, we're cynical, we have doubt; we go immediately into a semi- (or overt) attack mode. To me, it highlights the fact that people are chasing an awakening they don't believe could happen to them. That's a barrier, and the biggest one..."



---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

Yes, the thing goes full circle, from chasing the dream of enlightenment, to gaining the reality of enlightenment (and losing the former dream of enlightenment), and finally, having the enlightenment recreate the dream, in reality.
---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

yes, cognitive dissonance once we realize that the enlightened state does have all the outer attributes we associate with it.

I have cognitive dissonance along these lines myself that I am working through, or in the discover phase of.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

Barry, The Cave Boy from Leiden, raised by wolves, was the first image that came up - lol

seriously, people get locked into all the past pictures of enlightened teachers, and even Maharishi was not exactly a slacks and polo type of guy. And the religions have fucked up the image for good, insisting that solely doing good works (according to them), keeping in line, reading surface prayers, and mouthing platitudes about "helping the poor" and being "nice", will lead to our salvation. So it is a lot of context for us to overcome, to truly gain our freedom, our inner silence, and continue to be ourselves - even though that is the simple end result of enlightenment - fully being ourselves.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

that is funny Jim. a very simple, yet relevant observation.

yes, Barry has embarked on the path that has enlightenment as it's conclusion, but just can't handle that someone may have reached the goal.


maybe along the lines, "if I can't have it, no one can".


really, a childish attitude, indicating one might be stuck in a early stage of development.





---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

"'I think it's unfortunate that a person can spend hour after hour, day after day, year after year, dedicating his life to enlightenment, and yet the very notion that anybody attains enlightenment is a taboo. We're all going after this; but God forbid somebody says they've realized it. We don't believe them, we're cynical, we have doubt; we go immediately into a semi- (or overt) attack mode. To me, it highlights the fact that people are chasing an awakening they don't believe could happen to them. That's a barrier, and the biggest one..."

An excellent insight. I enjoy Adyashanti's clarity. He also comes from a town in the Bay Area that I am very familiar with, so it gives me an insight into his temperament.


This is exactly why I talk about enlightenment - It is possible, and even likely, to realize enlightenment, using the TM and TMSP techniques, and not just by saintly folks, but by ordinary schlubs, like me!


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

The Zen trained Adyashanti had this to say about 'enlightenment success':

'When I looked around at the Buddhist tradition, I realized that the success rate was terrible. People were in it for enlightenment, but very few were actually getting enlightened. If this were a business, I thought, we'd be bankrupt.'


'I think it's unfortunate that a person can spend hour after hour, day after day, year after year, dedicating his life to enlightenment, and yet the very notion that anybody attains enlightenment is a taboo. We're all going after this; but God forbid somebody says they've realized it. We don't believe them, we're cynical, we have doubt; we go immediately into a semi- (or overt) attack mode. To me, it highlights the fact that people are chasing an awakening they don't believe could happen to them. That's a barrier, and the biggest one... And when people have breakthroughs and talk about them in public, awakening loses its mystique. Everyone else can see that it's not just special people who have deep awakenings, it's their neighbor or their best friend.'


The TMO seemed to do pretty well for a while selling something nobody seems to have found. Perhaps one reason for this is the ideas we have in our heads about what enlightenment is supposed to be. The usual ideas about what enlightenment is, are something out of a comic book, something fantastical. Maybe it is something not quite so interesting to talk about, something so familiar that you discount it entirely.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

MJ, speak for yourself! I was never chasing enlightenment. I simply wanted to fulfill my desires.



From: "Michael Jackson ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor



And yet from the very beginning of the Movement till about the 1980's enlightenment was what we were all chasing and what Marshy emphasized over and over. Till it became obvious that no one was getting enlightened even with the 10,000 times more powerful than TM TMSP program so he switched to world peace.






From: "Share Long ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor



First of all, I'm familiar with spiritual groups who proclaim people enlightened. I didn't always agree with their proclamations! And as mentioned, I know of a group who gives certificates of enlightenment. Maybe they use different criteria than me! I also know people in the TMO who I think are pretty darn enlightened. But of course they don't proclaim themselves as such.

The whole thing is such a hodge podge that I simply ignore all the posturing and go by my own sense of a person. And actually, it doesn't matter to me whether or not they're "enlightened." There are other qualities that I value more.




From: "TurquoiseBee ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor



From: "Bhairitu ***@... [FairfieldLife]"




On 11/18/2014 09:17 AM, TurquoiseBee ***@... mailto:***@... [FairfieldLife] wrote:

From: "Bhairitu ***@... mailto:***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com> mailto:***@yahoogroups.com


On 11/18/2014 04:26 AM, TurquoiseBee ***@... mailto:***@... [FairfieldLife] wrote:

It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and say, "This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of practicing TM."






What organization does?


Just to make a point about the kinds of bullshit humans are willing to accept, think about the TM sales pitch for enlightenment, compared to almost anything else being sold on this planet:


-- "So, that's your introductory lecture. Just sign here, pay us your $75, and we promise you that you will be fully enlightened in five years." (Please note that this actually *happened* with the TM movement.)


-- "Sounds good, but looking into my crystal ball that shows me the future, I can see that what you're trying to sell me isn't going to cost me only $75, but tens of thousands of dollars over 30 or 40 years, to pay for all the extra courses and 'add-ons' you'll try to sell me. What can you show me to convince me that this 'enlightenment' you're trying to sell me will actually occur, and that if it does, it's worth it?


-- "Well, you just have to trust us. Give us your money now, and in 5 to 8 years (ooops, sorry about that) you'll be enlightened. And you've heard the lectures -- when you're enlightened, you'll be able to know everything and have everything you want just by wanting it. Isn't that worth the hundreds of thousands of dollars (ooops again) you'll wind up paying us?"


-- "It *might* be worth it, but what can you show me to prove to me that this 'enlightenment' you're selling me actually exists? For example, there are many people here in the room today who have been practicing TM for more than 8 years, the maximum time you say it will take to become enlightened. Point out the ones who are enlightened, and let me talk to them to figure out if this is all going to be worth it."


-- "Sorry. <insert reverential tone of bullshit here> 'We don't talk about our individual state of consciousness.'"


-- "WTF? So you're saying that I just have to TRUST you about all this enlightenment stuff, and you are NEVER going to show me anyone who you can guarantee has achieved it?"


-- "That's right."


-- "You DO know that this is insane, right? Promising the 'fastest path' to something you'll later refuse to ever produce?"


-- "You think WE'RE insane? Talk to the millions of people who bought this exact sales pitch hook, line, and sinker."



:-)













It's a "path to enlightenment" but my point was that no organization I know of guarantees it. You can't. It even goes against TM teaching because one's progress is dependent on the state of their nervous system. And by no means would it be the fastest. It really is just a meditation for the masses. It's nothing special other than it was probably better organized than some of the other front runners.



Bhairitu, it's not "guaranteeing enlightenment" that I'm riffing on for hopefully humorous purposes. It's the promising it for 50 years and never *producing* it I'm riffing on.


That, and the fact that they got away with it because their clientele was too stupid to ever say, "Now wait a minute...where are all these enlightened people you promised me I'd be surrounded by and be one of? Point them out to me. Show me an enlightened person."







Someone saying that -- *anyone* saying that -- would have been the counterpart of the line in the fairy tale that goes, "Uh, guys...you *have* noticed that the Emperor has no clothes on, right?" Asked to put up or shut up and actually *produce* a "certified TM enlightened person," the TMO wouldn't have been able to do so.



It's all a house of cards perpetuated by the fact that no one ever says, "Show me an enlightened person."
Share Long sharelong60@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-19 15:27:59 UTC
Permalink
LIKE (-:

From: "***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2014 7:48 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

  Yes, the thing goes full circle, from chasing the dream of enlightenment, to gaining the reality of enlightenment (and losing the former dream of enlightenment), and finally, having the enlightenment recreate the dream, in reality. 


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

yes, cognitive dissonance once we realize that the enlightened state does have all the outer attributes we associate with it.
I have cognitive dissonance along these lines myself that I am working through, or in the discover phase of.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

Barry, The Cave Boy from Leiden, raised by wolves, was the first image that came up - lol
seriously, people get locked into all the past pictures of enlightened teachers, and even Maharishi was not exactly a slacks and polo type of guy. And the religions have fucked up the image for good, insisting that solely doing good works (according to them), keeping in line, reading surface prayers, and mouthing platitudes about "helping the poor" and being "nice", will lead to our salvation. So it is a lot of context for us to overcome, to truly gain our freedom, our inner silence, and continue to be ourselves - even though that is the simple end result of enlightenment - fully being ourselves. 
---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

that is funny Jim.  a very simple, yet relevant observation.
yes, Barry has embarked on the path that has enlightenment as it's conclusion, but just can't handle that someone may have reached the goal.
maybe along the lines, "if I can't have it, no one can".
really, a childish attitude, indicating one might be stuck in a early stage of development.



---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

"'I think it's unfortunate that a person can spend hour after hour, day after day, year after year, dedicating his life to enlightenment, and yet the very notion that anybody attains enlightenment is a taboo. We're all going after this; but God forbid somebody says they've realized it. We don't believe them, we're cynical, we have doubt; we go immediately into a semi- (or overt) attack mode. To me, it highlights the fact that people are chasing an awakening they don't believe could happen to them. That's a barrier, and the biggest one..."
An excellent insight. I enjoy Adyashanti's clarity. He also comes from a town in the Bay Area that I am very familiar with, so it gives me an insight into his temperament.

This is exactly why I talk about enlightenment - It is possible, and even likely, to realize enlightenment, using the TM and TMSP techniques, and not just by saintly folks, but by ordinary schlubs, like me!  


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

The Zen trained Adyashanti had this to say about 'enlightenment success':
'When I looked around at the Buddhist tradition, I realized that the success rate was terrible. People were in it for enlightenment, but very few were actually getting enlightened. If this were a business, I thought, we'd be bankrupt.'
'I think it's unfortunate that a person can spend hour after hour, day after day, year after year, dedicating his life to enlightenment, and yet the very notion that anybody attains enlightenment is a taboo. We're all going after this; but God forbid somebody says they've realized it. We don't believe them, we're cynical, we have doubt; we go immediately into a semi- (or overt) attack mode. To me, it highlights the fact that people are chasing an awakening they don't believe could happen to them. That's a barrier, and the biggest one... And when people have breakthroughs and talk about them in public, awakening loses its mystique. Everyone else can see that it's not just special people who have deep awakenings, it's their neighbor or their best friend.'
The TMO seemed to do pretty well for a while selling something nobody seems to have found. Perhaps one reason for this is the ideas we have in our heads about what enlightenment is supposed to be. The usual ideas about what enlightenment is, are something out of a comic book, something fantastical. Maybe it is something not quite so interesting to talk about, something so familiar that you discount it entirely.

---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

MJ, speak for yourself! I was never chasing enlightenment. I simply wanted to fulfill my desires.

From: "Michael Jackson ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

 And yet from the very beginning of the Movement till about the 1980's enlightenment was what we were all chasing and what Marshy emphasized over and over. Till it became obvious that no one was getting enlightened even with the 10,000 times more powerful than TM TMSP program so he switched to world peace.



From: "Share Long ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

 First of all, I'm familiar with spiritual groups who proclaim people enlightened. I didn't always agree with their proclamations! And as mentioned, I know of a group who gives certificates of enlightenment.  Maybe they use different criteria than me! I also know people in the TMO who I think are pretty darn enlightened. But of course they don't proclaim themselves as such.
The whole thing is such a hodge podge that I simply ignore all the posturing and go by my own sense of a person. And actually, it doesn't matter to me whether or not they're "enlightened." There are other qualities that I value more.


From: "TurquoiseBee ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

 From: "Bhairitu ***@... [FairfieldLife]"
 

On 11/18/2014 09:17 AM, ***@... [FairfieldLife] wrote:







 From: "***@... [FairfieldLife]"<***@yahoogroups.com>

On11/18/2014 04:26 AM, TurquoiseBee ***@...[FairfieldLife] wrote:
 It'snot so much a rumor, more ofa sales pitch or claim, butI've always gotten a chucklefrom "TM is the fastest pathto enlightenment on theplanet," coming from anorganization that in over 50years has been unable toproduce even a single personthey can point at and say,"This person is enlightened,and got that way as a resultof practicing TM."



What organizationdoes?
Just to make apoint about the kinds ofbullshit humans are willing toaccept, think about the TM salespitch for enlightenment,compared to almost anything elsebeing sold on this planet:
-- "So, that'syour introductory lecture. Justsign here, pay us your $75, andwe promise you that you will befully enlightened in fiveyears."  (Please notethat this actually *happened*with the TM movement.)
--"Sounds good, but looking intomy crystal ball that shows methe future, I can see that whatyou're trying to sell me isn'tgoing to cost me only $75, buttens of thousands ofdollars over 30 or 40 years, topay for all the extra coursesand 'add-ons' you'll try to sellme. What can you show me toconvince me that this'enlightenment' you're trying tosell me will actually occur, andthat if it does, it's worth it?
-- "Well, you justhave to trust us. Give us yourmoney now, and in 5 to 8 years(ooops, sorry about that) you'llbe enlightened. And you've heardthe lectures -- when you'reenlightened, you'll be able toknow everything and haveeverything you want just bywanting it. Isn't that worth thehundreds of thousands of dollars(ooops again) you'll wind uppaying us?"
--"It *might* be worth it, butwhat can you show me to prove tome that this 'enlightenment'you're selling me actuallyexists? For example, there aremany people here in the roomtoday who have been practicingTM for more than 8 years, themaximum time you say it willtake to become enlightened.Point out the ones who areenlightened, and let me talk tothem to figure out if this isall going to be worth it."
-- "Sorry.<insert reverential tone ofbullshit here> 'We don't talkabout our individual state ofconsciousness.'"
--"WTF? So you're saying that Ijust have to TRUST you about allthis enlightenment stuff, andyou are NEVER going to show meanyone who you can guarantee hasachieved it?"
-- "That's right."
--"You DO know that this isinsane, right? Promising the'fastest path' to somethingyou'll later refuse to everproduce?"
-- "You thinkWE'RE insane? Talk to themillions of people who boughtthis exact sales pitch hook,line, and sinker." 

:-)








It's a "path to enlightenment" but my point was that no organizationI know of guarantees it.  You can't.  It even goes against TMteaching because one's progress is dependent on the state of theirnervous system.  And by no means would it be the fastest.  It reallyis just a meditation for the masses.  It's nothing special otherthan it was probably better organized than some of the other frontrunners.

Bhairitu, it's not "guaranteeing enlightenment" that I'm riffing on for hopefully humorous purposes. It's the promising it for 50 years and never *producing* it I'm riffing on. 
That, and the fact that they got away with it because their clientele was too stupid to ever say, "Now wait a minute...where are all these enlightened people you promised me I'd be surrounded by and be one of? Point them out to me. Show me an enlightened person."

Someone saying that -- *anyone* saying that -- would have been the counterpart of the line in the fairy tale that goes, "Uh, guys...you *have* noticed that the Emperor has no clothes on, right?" Asked to put up or shut up and actually *produce* a "certified TM enlightened person," the TMO wouldn't have been able to do so.

It's all a house of cards perpetuated by the fact that no one ever says, "Show me an enlightened person."








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Share Long sharelong60@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-19 15:40:11 UTC
Permalink
Funny about Adya, I love his writing. But when he came to FF and spoke in person, I was somewhat disappointed. Maybe he's an introvert by nature...

From: "***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

  The Zen trained Adyashanti had this to say about 'enlightenment success':
'When I looked around at the Buddhist tradition, I realized that the success rate was terrible. People were in it for enlightenment, but very few were actually getting enlightened. If this were a business, I thought, we'd be bankrupt.'
'I think it's unfortunate that a person can spend hour after hour, day after day, year after year, dedicating his life to enlightenment, and yet the very notion that anybody attains enlightenment is a taboo. We're all going after this; but God forbid somebody says they've realized it. We don't believe them, we're cynical, we have doubt; we go immediately into a semi- (or overt) attack mode. To me, it highlights the fact that people are chasing an awakening they don't believe could happen to them. That's a barrier, and the biggest one... And when people have breakthroughs and talk about them in public, awakening loses its mystique. Everyone else can see that it's not just special people who have deep awakenings, it's their neighbor or their best friend.'
The TMO seemed to do pretty well for a while selling something nobody seems to have found. Perhaps one reason for this is the ideas we have in our heads about what enlightenment is supposed to be. The usual ideas about what enlightenment is, are something out of a comic book, something fantastical. Maybe it is something not quite so interesting to talk about, something so familiar that you discount it entirely.

---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

MJ, speak for yourself! I was never chasing enlightenment. I simply wanted to fulfill my desires.

From: "Michael Jackson ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

 And yet from the very beginning of the Movement till about the 1980's enlightenment was what we were all chasing and what Marshy emphasized over and over. Till it became obvious that no one was getting enlightened even with the 10,000 times more powerful than TM TMSP program so he switched to world peace.



From: "Share Long ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

 First of all, I'm familiar with spiritual groups who proclaim people enlightened. I didn't always agree with their proclamations! And as mentioned, I know of a group who gives certificates of enlightenment.  Maybe they use different criteria than me! I also know people in the TMO who I think are pretty darn enlightened. But of course they don't proclaim themselves as such.
The whole thing is such a hodge podge that I simply ignore all the posturing and go by my own sense of a person. And actually, it doesn't matter to me whether or not they're "enlightened." There are other qualities that I value more.


From: "TurquoiseBee ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

 From: "Bhairitu ***@... [FairfieldLife]"
 

On 11/18/2014 09:17 AM, ***@... [FairfieldLife] wrote:


 From: "***@... [FairfieldLife]"<***@yahoogroups.com>

On11/18/2014 04:26 AM, TurquoiseBee ***@...[FairfieldLife] wrote:
 It'snot so much a rumor, more ofa sales pitch or claim, butI've always gotten a chucklefrom "TM is the fastest pathto enlightenment on theplanet," coming from anorganization that in over 50years has been unable toproduce even a single personthey can point at and say,"This person is enlightened,and got that way as a resultof practicing TM."



What organizationdoes?
Just to make apoint about the kinds ofbullshit humans are willing toaccept, think about the TM salespitch for enlightenment,compared to almost anything elsebeing sold on this planet:
-- "So, that'syour introductory lecture. Justsign here, pay us your $75, andwe promise you that you will befully enlightened in fiveyears."  (Please notethat this actually *happened*with the TM movement.)
--"Sounds good, but looking intomy crystal ball that shows methe future, I can see that whatyou're trying to sell me isn'tgoing to cost me only $75, buttens of thousands ofdollars over 30 or 40 years, topay for all the extra coursesand 'add-ons' you'll try to sellme. What can you show me toconvince me that this'enlightenment' you're trying tosell me will actually occur, andthat if it does, it's worth it?
-- "Well, you justhave to trust us. Give us yourmoney now, and in 5 to 8 years(ooops, sorry about that) you'llbe enlightened. And you've heardthe lectures -- when you'reenlightened, you'll be able toknow everything and haveeverything you want just bywanting it. Isn't that worth thehundreds of thousands of dollars(ooops again) you'll wind uppaying us?"
--"It *might* be worth it, butwhat can you show me to prove tome that this 'enlightenment'you're selling me actuallyexists? For example, there aremany people here in the roomtoday who have been practicingTM for more than 8 years, themaximum time you say it willtake to become enlightened.Point out the ones who areenlightened, and let me talk tothem to figure out if this isall going to be worth it."
-- "Sorry.<insert reverential tone ofbullshit here> 'We don't talkabout our individual state ofconsciousness.'"
--"WTF? So you're saying that Ijust have to TRUST you about allthis enlightenment stuff, andyou are NEVER going to show meanyone who you can guarantee hasachieved it?"
-- "That's right."
--"You DO know that this isinsane, right? Promising the'fastest path' to somethingyou'll later refuse to everproduce?"
-- "You thinkWE'RE insane? Talk to themillions of people who boughtthis exact sales pitch hook,line, and sinker." 

:-)



It's a "path to enlightenment" but my point was that no organizationI know of guarantees it.  You can't.  It even goes against TMteaching because one's progress is dependent on the state of theirnervous system.  And by no means would it be the fastest.  It reallyis just a meditation for the masses.  It's nothing special otherthan it was probably better organized than some of the other frontrunners.

Bhairitu, it's not "guaranteeing enlightenment" that I'm riffing on for hopefully humorous purposes. It's the promising it for 50 years and never *producing* it I'm riffing on. 
That, and the fact that they got away with it because their clientele was too stupid to ever say, "Now wait a minute...where are all these enlightened people you promised me I'd be surrounded by and be one of? Point them out to me. Show me an enlightened person."

Someone saying that -- *anyone* saying that -- would have been the counterpart of the line in the fairy tale that goes, "Uh, guys...you *have* noticed that the Emperor has no clothes on, right?" Asked to put up or shut up and actually *produce* a "certified TM enlightened person," the TMO wouldn't have been able to do so.

It's all a house of cards perpetuated by the fact that no one ever says, "Show me an enlightened person."











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fleetwood_macncheese@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-19 16:17:35 UTC
Permalink
What were you expecting? He's pretty normal, from what I can tell...


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

Funny about Adya, I love his writing. But when he came to FF and spoke in person, I was somewhat disappointed. Maybe he's an introvert by nature...



From: "***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor


The Zen trained Adyashanti had this to say about 'enlightenment success':


'When I looked around at the Buddhist tradition, I realized that the success rate was terrible. People were in it for enlightenment, but very few were actually getting enlightened. If this were a business, I thought, we'd be bankrupt.'


'I think it's unfortunate that a person can spend hour after hour, day after day, year after year, dedicating his life to enlightenment, and yet the very notion that anybody attains enlightenment is a taboo. We're all going after this; but God forbid somebody says they've realized it. We don't believe them, we're cynical, we have doubt; we go immediately into a semi- (or overt) attack mode. To me, it highlights the fact that people are chasing an awakening they don't believe could happen to them. That's a barrier, and the biggest one... And when people have breakthroughs and talk about them in public, awakening loses its mystique. Everyone else can see that it's not just special people who have deep awakenings, it's their neighbor or their best friend.'


The TMO seemed to do pretty well for a while selling something nobody seems to have found. Perhaps one reason for this is the ideas we have in our heads about what enlightenment is supposed to be. The usual ideas about what enlightenment is, are something out of a comic book, something fantastical. Maybe it is something not quite so interesting to talk about, something so familiar that you discount it entirely.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

MJ, speak for yourself! I was never chasing enlightenment. I simply wanted to fulfill my desires.


From: "Michael Jackson ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor



And yet from the very beginning of the Movement till about the 1980's enlightenment was what we were all chasing and what Marshy emphasized over and over. Till it became obvious that no one was getting enlightened even with the 10,000 times more powerful than TM TMSP program so he switched to world peace.





From: "Share Long ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor



First of all, I'm familiar with spiritual groups who proclaim people enlightened. I didn't always agree with their proclamations! And as mentioned, I know of a group who gives certificates of enlightenment. Maybe they use different criteria than me! I also know people in the TMO who I think are pretty darn enlightened. But of course they don't proclaim themselves as such.

The whole thing is such a hodge podge that I simply ignore all the posturing and go by my own sense of a person. And actually, it doesn't matter to me whether or not they're "enlightened." There are other qualities that I value more.



From: "TurquoiseBee ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor



From: "Bhairitu ***@... [FairfieldLife]"




On 11/18/2014 09:17 AM, TurquoiseBee ***@... mailto:***@... [FairfieldLife] wrote:

From: "Bhairitu ***@... mailto:***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com> mailto:***@yahoogroups.com


On 11/18/2014 04:26 AM, TurquoiseBee ***@... mailto:***@... [FairfieldLife] wrote:

It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and say, "This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of practicing TM."






What organization does?


Just to make a point about the kinds of bullshit humans are willing to accept, think about the TM sales pitch for enlightenment, compared to almost anything else being sold on this planet:


-- "So, that's your introductory lecture. Just sign here, pay us your $75, and we promise you that you will be fully enlightened in five years." (Please note that this actually *happened* with the TM movement.)


-- "Sounds good, but looking into my crystal ball that shows me the future, I can see that what you're trying to sell me isn't going to cost me only $75, but tens of thousands of dollars over 30 or 40 years, to pay for all the extra courses and 'add-ons' you'll try to sell me. What can you show me to convince me that this 'enlightenment' you're trying to sell me will actually occur, and that if it does, it's worth it?


-- "Well, you just have to trust us. Give us your money now, and in 5 to 8 years (ooops, sorry about that) you'll be enlightened. And you've heard the lectures -- when you're enlightened, you'll be able to know everything and have everything you want just by wanting it. Isn't that worth the hundreds of thousands of dollars (ooops again) you'll wind up paying us?"


-- "It *might* be worth it, but what can you show me to prove to me that this 'enlightenment' you're selling me actually exists? For example, there are many people here in the room today who have been practicing TM for more than 8 years, the maximum time you say it will take to become enlightened. Point out the ones who are enlightened, and let me talk to them to figure out if this is all going to be worth it."


-- "Sorry. <insert reverential tone of bullshit here> 'We don't talk about our individual state of consciousness.'"


-- "WTF? So you're saying that I just have to TRUST you about all this enlightenment stuff, and you are NEVER going to show me anyone who you can guarantee has achieved it?"


-- "That's right."


-- "You DO know that this is insane, right? Promising the 'fastest path' to something you'll later refuse to ever produce?"


-- "You think WE'RE insane? Talk to the millions of people who bought this exact sales pitch hook, line, and sinker."



:-)













It's a "path to enlightenment" but my point was that no organization I know of guarantees it. You can't. It even goes against TM teaching because one's progress is dependent on the state of their nervous system. And by no means would it be the fastest. It really is just a meditation for the masses. It's nothing special other than it was probably better organized than some of the other front runners.



Bhairitu, it's not "guaranteeing enlightenment" that I'm riffing on for hopefully humorous purposes. It's the promising it for 50 years and never *producing* it I'm riffing on.


That, and the fact that they got away with it because their clientele was too stupid to ever say, "Now wait a minute...where are all these enlightened people you promised me I'd be surrounded by and be one of? Point them out to me. Show me an enlightened person."







Someone saying that -- *anyone* saying that -- would have been the counterpart of the line in the fairy tale that goes, "Uh, guys...you *have* noticed that the Emperor has no clothes on, right?" Asked to put up or shut up and actually *produce* a "certified TM enlightened person," the TMO wouldn't have been able to do so.



It's all a house of cards perpetuated by the fact that no one ever says, "Show me an enlightened person."
Share Long sharelong60@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-19 16:23:56 UTC
Permalink
Fleetwood, I don't remember what I was expecting. Maybe for him to be as articulate in person as he is on paper? Doesn't matter. I still love his writing.

From: "***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2014 10:17 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

  What were you expecting? He's pretty normal, from what I can tell...
---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

Funny about Adya, I love his writing. But when he came to FF and spoke in person, I was somewhat disappointed. Maybe he's an introvert by nature...

From: "***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

 The Zen trained Adyashanti had this to say about 'enlightenment success':
'When I looked around at the Buddhist tradition, I realized that the success rate was terrible. People were in it for enlightenment, but very few were actually getting enlightened. If this were a business, I thought, we'd be bankrupt.'
'I think it's unfortunate that a person can spend hour after hour, day after day, year after year, dedicating his life to enlightenment, and yet the very notion that anybody attains enlightenment is a taboo. We're all going after this; but God forbid somebody says they've realized it. We don't believe them, we're cynical, we have doubt; we go immediately into a semi- (or overt) attack mode. To me, it highlights the fact that people are chasing an awakening they don't believe could happen to them. That's a barrier, and the biggest one... And when people have breakthroughs and talk about them in public, awakening loses its mystique. Everyone else can see that it's not just special people who have deep awakenings, it's their neighbor or their best friend.'
The TMO seemed to do pretty well for a while selling something nobody seems to have found. Perhaps one reason for this is the ideas we have in our heads about what enlightenment is supposed to be. The usual ideas about what enlightenment is, are something out of a comic book, something fantastical. Maybe it is something not quite so interesting to talk about, something so familiar that you discount it entirely.

---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

MJ, speak for yourself! I was never chasing enlightenment. I simply wanted to fulfill my desires.

From: "Michael Jackson ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

 And yet from the very beginning of the Movement till about the 1980's enlightenment was what we were all chasing and what Marshy emphasized over and over. Till it became obvious that no one was getting enlightened even with the 10,000 times more powerful than TM TMSP program so he switched to world peace.



From: "Share Long ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

 First of all, I'm familiar with spiritual groups who proclaim people enlightened. I didn't always agree with their proclamations! And as mentioned, I know of a group who gives certificates of enlightenment.  Maybe they use different criteria than me! I also know people in the TMO who I think are pretty darn enlightened. But of course they don't proclaim themselves as such.
The whole thing is such a hodge podge that I simply ignore all the posturing and go by my own sense of a person. And actually, it doesn't matter to me whether or not they're "enlightened." There are other qualities that I value more.


From: "TurquoiseBee ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

 From: "Bhairitu ***@... [FairfieldLife]"
 

On 11/18/2014 09:17 AM, ***@... [FairfieldLife] wrote:



 From: "***@... [FairfieldLife]"<***@yahoogroups.com>

On11/18/2014 04:26 AM, TurquoiseBee ***@...[FairfieldLife] wrote:
 It'snot so much a rumor, more ofa sales pitch or claim, butI've always gotten a chucklefrom "TM is the fastest pathto enlightenment on theplanet," coming from anorganization that in over 50years has been unable toproduce even a single personthey can point at and say,"This person is enlightened,and got that way as a resultof practicing TM."



What organizationdoes?
Just to make apoint about the kinds ofbullshit humans are willing toaccept, think about the TM salespitch for enlightenment,compared to almost anything elsebeing sold on this planet:
-- "So, that'syour introductory lecture. Justsign here, pay us your $75, andwe promise you that you will befully enlightened in fiveyears."  (Please notethat this actually *happened*with the TM movement.)
--"Sounds good, but looking intomy crystal ball that shows methe future, I can see that whatyou're trying to sell me isn'tgoing to cost me only $75, buttens of thousands ofdollars over 30 or 40 years, topay for all the extra coursesand 'add-ons' you'll try to sellme. What can you show me toconvince me that this'enlightenment' you're trying tosell me will actually occur, andthat if it does, it's worth it?
-- "Well, you justhave to trust us. Give us yourmoney now, and in 5 to 8 years(ooops, sorry about that) you'llbe enlightened. And you've heardthe lectures -- when you'reenlightened, you'll be able toknow everything and haveeverything you want just bywanting it. Isn't that worth thehundreds of thousands of dollars(ooops again) you'll wind uppaying us?"
--"It *might* be worth it, butwhat can you show me to prove tome that this 'enlightenment'you're selling me actuallyexists? For example, there aremany people here in the roomtoday who have been practicingTM for more than 8 years, themaximum time you say it willtake to become enlightened.Point out the ones who areenlightened, and let me talk tothem to figure out if this isall going to be worth it."
-- "Sorry.<insert reverential tone ofbullshit here> 'We don't talkabout our individual state ofconsciousness.'"
--"WTF? So you're saying that Ijust have to TRUST you about allthis enlightenment stuff, andyou are NEVER going to show meanyone who you can guarantee hasachieved it?"
-- "That's right."
--"You DO know that this isinsane, right? Promising the'fastest path' to somethingyou'll later refuse to everproduce?"
-- "You thinkWE'RE insane? Talk to themillions of people who boughtthis exact sales pitch hook,line, and sinker." 

:-)




It's a "path to enlightenment" but my point was that no organizationI know of guarantees it.  You can't.  It even goes against TMteaching because one's progress is dependent on the state of theirnervous system.  And by no means would it be the fastest.  It reallyis just a meditation for the masses.  It's nothing special otherthan it was probably better organized than some of the other frontrunners.

Bhairitu, it's not "guaranteeing enlightenment" that I'm riffing on for hopefully humorous purposes. It's the promising it for 50 years and never *producing* it I'm riffing on. 
That, and the fact that they got away with it because their clientele was too stupid to ever say, "Now wait a minute...where are all these enlightened people you promised me I'd be surrounded by and be one of? Point them out to me. Show me an enlightened person."

Someone saying that -- *anyone* saying that -- would have been the counterpart of the line in the fairy tale that goes, "Uh, guys...you *have* noticed that the Emperor has no clothes on, right?" Asked to put up or shut up and actually *produce* a "certified TM enlightened person," the TMO wouldn't have been able to do so.

It's all a house of cards perpetuated by the fact that no one ever says, "Show me an enlightened person."











 

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fleetwood_macncheese@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-19 16:26:56 UTC
Permalink
I was just curious - maybe he is not a very flamboyant speaker, or doesn't make an effort to connect with people in his audience? ---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

Fleetwood, I don't remember what I was expecting. Maybe for him to be as articulate in person as he is on paper? Doesn't matter. I still love his writing.


From: "***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2014 10:17 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor



What were you expecting? He's pretty normal, from what I can tell...


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

Funny about Adya, I love his writing. But when he came to FF and spoke in person, I was somewhat disappointed. Maybe he's an introvert by nature...



From: "***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor


The Zen trained Adyashanti had this to say about 'enlightenment success':


'When I looked around at the Buddhist tradition, I realized that the success rate was terrible. People were in it for enlightenment, but very few were actually getting enlightened. If this were a business, I thought, we'd be bankrupt.'


'I think it's unfortunate that a person can spend hour after hour, day after day, year after year, dedicating his life to enlightenment, and yet the very notion that anybody attains enlightenment is a taboo. We're all going after this; but God forbid somebody says they've realized it. We don't believe them, we're cynical, we have doubt; we go immediately into a semi- (or overt) attack mode. To me, it highlights the fact that people are chasing an awakening they don't believe could happen to them. That's a barrier, and the biggest one... And when people have breakthroughs and talk about them in public, awakening loses its mystique. Everyone else can see that it's not just special people who have deep awakenings, it's their neighbor or their best friend.'


The TMO seemed to do pretty well for a while selling something nobody seems to have found. Perhaps one reason for this is the ideas we have in our heads about what enlightenment is supposed to be. The usual ideas about what enlightenment is, are something out of a comic book, something fantastical. Maybe it is something not quite so interesting to talk about, something so familiar that you discount it entirely.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

MJ, speak for yourself! I was never chasing enlightenment. I simply wanted to fulfill my desires.


From: "Michael Jackson ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor



And yet from the very beginning of the Movement till about the 1980's enlightenment was what we were all chasing and what Marshy emphasized over and over. Till it became obvious that no one was getting enlightened even with the 10,000 times more powerful than TM TMSP program so he switched to world peace.





From: "Share Long ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor



First of all, I'm familiar with spiritual groups who proclaim people enlightened. I didn't always agree with their proclamations! And as mentioned, I know of a group who gives certificates of enlightenment. Maybe they use different criteria than me! I also know people in the TMO who I think are pretty darn enlightened. But of course they don't proclaim themselves as such.

The whole thing is such a hodge podge that I simply ignore all the posturing and go by my own sense of a person. And actually, it doesn't matter to me whether or not they're "enlightened." There are other qualities that I value more.



From: "TurquoiseBee ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor



From: "Bhairitu ***@... [FairfieldLife]"




On 11/18/2014 09:17 AM, TurquoiseBee ***@... mailto:***@... [FairfieldLife] wrote:

From: "Bhairitu ***@... mailto:***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com> mailto:***@yahoogroups.com


On 11/18/2014 04:26 AM, TurquoiseBee ***@... mailto:***@... [FairfieldLife] wrote:

It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and say, "This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of practicing TM."






What organization does?


Just to make a point about the kinds of bullshit humans are willing to accept, think about the TM sales pitch for enlightenment, compared to almost anything else being sold on this planet:


-- "So, that's your introductory lecture. Just sign here, pay us your $75, and we promise you that you will be fully enlightened in five years." (Please note that this actually *happened* with the TM movement.)


-- "Sounds good, but looking into my crystal ball that shows me the future, I can see that what you're trying to sell me isn't going to cost me only $75, but tens of thousands of dollars over 30 or 40 years, to pay for all the extra courses and 'add-ons' you'll try to sell me. What can you show me to convince me that this 'enlightenment' you're trying to sell me will actually occur, and that if it does, it's worth it?


-- "Well, you just have to trust us. Give us your money now, and in 5 to 8 years (ooops, sorry about that) you'll be enlightened. And you've heard the lectures -- when you're enlightened, you'll be able to know everything and have everything you want just by wanting it. Isn't that worth the hundreds of thousands of dollars (ooops again) you'll wind up paying us?"


-- "It *might* be worth it, but what can you show me to prove to me that this 'enlightenment' you're selling me actually exists? For example, there are many people here in the room today who have been practicing TM for more than 8 years, the maximum time you say it will take to become enlightened. Point out the ones who are enlightened, and let me talk to them to figure out if this is all going to be worth it."


-- "Sorry. <insert reverential tone of bullshit here> 'We don't talk about our individual state of consciousness.'"


-- "WTF? So you're saying that I just have to TRUST you about all this enlightenment stuff, and you are NEVER going to show me anyone who you can guarantee has achieved it?"


-- "That's right."


-- "You DO know that this is insane, right? Promising the 'fastest path' to something you'll later refuse to ever produce?"


-- "You think WE'RE insane? Talk to the millions of people who bought this exact sales pitch hook, line, and sinker."



:-)













It's a "path to enlightenment" but my point was that no organization I know of guarantees it. You can't. It even goes against TM teaching because one's progress is dependent on the state of their nervous system. And by no means would it be the fastest. It really is just a meditation for the masses. It's nothing special other than it was probably better organized than some of the other front runners.



Bhairitu, it's not "guaranteeing enlightenment" that I'm riffing on for hopefully humorous purposes. It's the promising it for 50 years and never *producing* it I'm riffing on.


That, and the fact that they got away with it because their clientele was too stupid to ever say, "Now wait a minute...where are all these enlightened people you promised me I'd be surrounded by and be one of? Point them out to me. Show me an enlightened person."







Someone saying that -- *anyone* saying that -- would have been the counterpart of the line in the fairy tale that goes, "Uh, guys...you *have* noticed that the Emperor has no clothes on, right?" Asked to put up or shut up and actually *produce* a "certified TM enlightened person," the TMO wouldn't have been able to do so.



It's all a house of cards perpetuated by the fact that no one ever says, "Show me an enlightened person."
Share Long sharelong60@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-19 16:31:48 UTC
Permalink
Fleet, generally I eschew flamboyant speakers. But I think it's possible for a speaker to be lively without being flamboyant. It could have been the venue, a huge auditorium with tiers and tiers of seats. And it was packed for his event.

From: "***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2014 10:26 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

  I was just curious - maybe he is not a very flamboyant speaker, or doesn't make an effort to connect with people in his audience?  ---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

Fleetwood, I don't remember what I was expecting. Maybe for him to be as articulate in person as he is on paper? Doesn't matter. I still love his writing.

From: "***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2014 10:17 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

 What were you expecting? He's pretty normal, from what I can tell...
---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

Funny about Adya, I love his writing. But when he came to FF and spoke in person, I was somewhat disappointed. Maybe he's an introvert by nature...

From: "***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

 The Zen trained Adyashanti had this to say about 'enlightenment success':
'When I looked around at the Buddhist tradition, I realized that the success rate was terrible. People were in it for enlightenment, but very few were actually getting enlightened. If this were a business, I thought, we'd be bankrupt.'
'I think it's unfortunate that a person can spend hour after hour, day after day, year after year, dedicating his life to enlightenment, and yet the very notion that anybody attains enlightenment is a taboo. We're all going after this; but God forbid somebody says they've realized it. We don't believe them, we're cynical, we have doubt; we go immediately into a semi- (or overt) attack mode. To me, it highlights the fact that people are chasing an awakening they don't believe could happen to them. That's a barrier, and the biggest one... And when people have breakthroughs and talk about them in public, awakening loses its mystique. Everyone else can see that it's not just special people who have deep awakenings, it's their neighbor or their best friend.'
The TMO seemed to do pretty well for a while selling something nobody seems to have found. Perhaps one reason for this is the ideas we have in our heads about what enlightenment is supposed to be. The usual ideas about what enlightenment is, are something out of a comic book, something fantastical. Maybe it is something not quite so interesting to talk about, something so familiar that you discount it entirely.

---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

MJ, speak for yourself! I was never chasing enlightenment. I simply wanted to fulfill my desires.

From: "Michael Jackson ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

 And yet from the very beginning of the Movement till about the 1980's enlightenment was what we were all chasing and what Marshy emphasized over and over. Till it became obvious that no one was getting enlightened even with the 10,000 times more powerful than TM TMSP program so he switched to world peace.



From: "Share Long ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

 First of all, I'm familiar with spiritual groups who proclaim people enlightened. I didn't always agree with their proclamations! And as mentioned, I know of a group who gives certificates of enlightenment.  Maybe they use different criteria than me! I also know people in the TMO who I think are pretty darn enlightened. But of course they don't proclaim themselves as such.
The whole thing is such a hodge podge that I simply ignore all the posturing and go by my own sense of a person. And actually, it doesn't matter to me whether or not they're "enlightened." There are other qualities that I value more.


From: "TurquoiseBee ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

 From: "Bhairitu ***@... [FairfieldLife]"
 

On 11/18/2014 09:17 AM, ***@... [FairfieldLife] wrote:




 From: "***@... [FairfieldLife]"<***@yahoogroups.com>

On11/18/2014 04:26 AM, TurquoiseBee ***@...[FairfieldLife] wrote:
 It'snot so much a rumor, more ofa sales pitch or claim, butI've always gotten a chucklefrom "TM is the fastest pathto enlightenment on theplanet," coming from anorganization that in over 50years has been unable toproduce even a single personthey can point at and say,"This person is enlightened,and got that way as a resultof practicing TM."



What organizationdoes?
Just to make apoint about the kinds ofbullshit humans are willing toaccept, think about the TM salespitch for enlightenment,compared to almost anything elsebeing sold on this planet:
-- "So, that'syour introductory lecture. Justsign here, pay us your $75, andwe promise you that you will befully enlightened in fiveyears."  (Please notethat this actually *happened*with the TM movement.)
--"Sounds good, but looking intomy crystal ball that shows methe future, I can see that whatyou're trying to sell me isn'tgoing to cost me only $75, buttens of thousands ofdollars over 30 or 40 years, topay for all the extra coursesand 'add-ons' you'll try to sellme. What can you show me toconvince me that this'enlightenment' you're trying tosell me will actually occur, andthat if it does, it's worth it?
-- "Well, you justhave to trust us. Give us yourmoney now, and in 5 to 8 years(ooops, sorry about that) you'llbe enlightened. And you've heardthe lectures -- when you'reenlightened, you'll be able toknow everything and haveeverything you want just bywanting it. Isn't that worth thehundreds of thousands of dollars(ooops again) you'll wind uppaying us?"
--"It *might* be worth it, butwhat can you show me to prove tome that this 'enlightenment'you're selling me actuallyexists? For example, there aremany people here in the roomtoday who have been practicingTM for more than 8 years, themaximum time you say it willtake to become enlightened.Point out the ones who areenlightened, and let me talk tothem to figure out if this isall going to be worth it."
-- "Sorry.<insert reverential tone ofbullshit here> 'We don't talkabout our individual state ofconsciousness.'"
--"WTF? So you're saying that Ijust have to TRUST you about allthis enlightenment stuff, andyou are NEVER going to show meanyone who you can guarantee hasachieved it?"
-- "That's right."
--"You DO know that this isinsane, right? Promising the'fastest path' to somethingyou'll later refuse to everproduce?"
-- "You thinkWE'RE insane? Talk to themillions of people who boughtthis exact sales pitch hook,line, and sinker." 

:-)





It's a "path to enlightenment" but my point was that no organizationI know of guarantees it.  You can't.  It even goes against TMteaching because one's progress is dependent on the state of theirnervous system.  And by no means would it be the fastest.  It reallyis just a meditation for the masses.  It's nothing special otherthan it was probably better organized than some of the other frontrunners.

Bhairitu, it's not "guaranteeing enlightenment" that I'm riffing on for hopefully humorous purposes. It's the promising it for 50 years and never *producing* it I'm riffing on. 
That, and the fact that they got away with it because their clientele was too stupid to ever say, "Now wait a minute...where are all these enlightened people you promised me I'd be surrounded by and be one of? Point them out to me. Show me an enlightened person."

Someone saying that -- *anyone* saying that -- would have been the counterpart of the line in the fairy tale that goes, "Uh, guys...you *have* noticed that the Emperor has no clothes on, right?" Asked to put up or shut up and actually *produce* a "certified TM enlightened person," the TMO wouldn't have been able to do so.

It's all a house of cards perpetuated by the fact that no one ever says, "Show me an enlightened person."











 



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fleetwood_macncheese@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-19 16:37:19 UTC
Permalink
Ah - sounds more like a concert venue. Wouldn't be fun.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

Fleet, generally I eschew flamboyant speakers. But I think it's possible for a speaker to be lively without being flamboyant. It could have been the venue, a huge auditorium with tiers and tiers of seats. And it was packed for his event.


From: "***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2014 10:26 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor


I was just curious - maybe he is not a very flamboyant speaker, or doesn't make an effort to connect with people in his audience?
---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

Fleetwood, I don't remember what I was expecting. Maybe for him to be as articulate in person as he is on paper? Doesn't matter. I still love his writing.


From: "***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2014 10:17 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor



What were you expecting? He's pretty normal, from what I can tell...


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

Funny about Adya, I love his writing. But when he came to FF and spoke in person, I was somewhat disappointed. Maybe he's an introvert by nature...



From: "***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor


The Zen trained Adyashanti had this to say about 'enlightenment success':


'When I looked around at the Buddhist tradition, I realized that the success rate was terrible. People were in it for enlightenment, but very few were actually getting enlightened. If this were a business, I thought, we'd be bankrupt.'


'I think it's unfortunate that a person can spend hour after hour, day after day, year after year, dedicating his life to enlightenment, and yet the very notion that anybody attains enlightenment is a taboo. We're all going after this; but God forbid somebody says they've realized it. We don't believe them, we're cynical, we have doubt; we go immediately into a semi- (or overt) attack mode. To me, it highlights the fact that people are chasing an awakening they don't believe could happen to them. That's a barrier, and the biggest one... And when people have breakthroughs and talk about them in public, awakening loses its mystique. Everyone else can see that it's not just special people who have deep awakenings, it's their neighbor or their best friend.'


The TMO seemed to do pretty well for a while selling something nobody seems to have found. Perhaps one reason for this is the ideas we have in our heads about what enlightenment is supposed to be. The usual ideas about what enlightenment is, are something out of a comic book, something fantastical. Maybe it is something not quite so interesting to talk about, something so familiar that you discount it entirely.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

MJ, speak for yourself! I was never chasing enlightenment. I simply wanted to fulfill my desires.


From: "Michael Jackson ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor



And yet from the very beginning of the Movement till about the 1980's enlightenment was what we were all chasing and what Marshy emphasized over and over. Till it became obvious that no one was getting enlightened even with the 10,000 times more powerful than TM TMSP program so he switched to world peace.





From: "Share Long ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor



First of all, I'm familiar with spiritual groups who proclaim people enlightened. I didn't always agree with their proclamations! And as mentioned, I know of a group who gives certificates of enlightenment. Maybe they use different criteria than me! I also know people in the TMO who I think are pretty darn enlightened. But of course they don't proclaim themselves as such.

The whole thing is such a hodge podge that I simply ignore all the posturing and go by my own sense of a person. And actually, it doesn't matter to me whether or not they're "enlightened." There are other qualities that I value more.



From: "TurquoiseBee ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor



From: "Bhairitu ***@... [FairfieldLife]"




On 11/18/2014 09:17 AM, TurquoiseBee ***@... mailto:***@... [FairfieldLife] wrote:

From: "Bhairitu ***@... mailto:***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com> mailto:***@yahoogroups.com


On 11/18/2014 04:26 AM, TurquoiseBee ***@... mailto:***@... [FairfieldLife] wrote:

It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and say, "This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of practicing TM."






What organization does?


Just to make a point about the kinds of bullshit humans are willing to accept, think about the TM sales pitch for enlightenment, compared to almost anything else being sold on this planet:


-- "So, that's your introductory lecture. Just sign here, pay us your $75, and we promise you that you will be fully enlightened in five years." (Please note that this actually *happened* with the TM movement.)


-- "Sounds good, but looking into my crystal ball that shows me the future, I can see that what you're trying to sell me isn't going to cost me only $75, but tens of thousands of dollars over 30 or 40 years, to pay for all the extra courses and 'add-ons' you'll try to sell me. What can you show me to convince me that this 'enlightenment' you're trying to sell me will actually occur, and that if it does, it's worth it?


-- "Well, you just have to trust us. Give us your money now, and in 5 to 8 years (ooops, sorry about that) you'll be enlightened. And you've heard the lectures -- when you're enlightened, you'll be able to know everything and have everything you want just by wanting it. Isn't that worth the hundreds of thousands of dollars (ooops again) you'll wind up paying us?"


-- "It *might* be worth it, but what can you show me to prove to me that this 'enlightenment' you're selling me actually exists? For example, there are many people here in the room today who have been practicing TM for more than 8 years, the maximum time you say it will take to become enlightened. Point out the ones who are enlightened, and let me talk to them to figure out if this is all going to be worth it."


-- "Sorry. <insert reverential tone of bullshit here> 'We don't talk about our individual state of consciousness.'"


-- "WTF? So you're saying that I just have to TRUST you about all this enlightenment stuff, and you are NEVER going to show me anyone who you can guarantee has achieved it?"


-- "That's right."


-- "You DO know that this is insane, right? Promising the 'fastest path' to something you'll later refuse to ever produce?"


-- "You think WE'RE insane? Talk to the millions of people who bought this exact sales pitch hook, line, and sinker."



:-)













It's a "path to enlightenment" but my point was that no organization I know of guarantees it. You can't. It even goes against TM teaching because one's progress is dependent on the state of their nervous system. And by no means would it be the fastest. It really is just a meditation for the masses. It's nothing special other than it was probably better organized than some of the other front runners.



Bhairitu, it's not "guaranteeing enlightenment" that I'm riffing on for hopefully humorous purposes. It's the promising it for 50 years and never *producing* it I'm riffing on.


That, and the fact that they got away with it because their clientele was too stupid to ever say, "Now wait a minute...where are all these enlightened people you promised me I'd be surrounded by and be one of? Point them out to me. Show me an enlightened person."







Someone saying that -- *anyone* saying that -- would have been the counterpart of the line in the fairy tale that goes, "Uh, guys...you *have* noticed that the Emperor has no clothes on, right?" Asked to put up or shut up and actually *produce* a "certified TM enlightened person," the TMO wouldn't have been able to do so.



It's all a house of cards perpetuated by the fact that no one ever says, "Show me an enlightened person."
Bhairitu noozguru@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-18 20:13:08 UTC
Permalink
I've always said the "experiencing enlightenment" is the thing to say
even if it is for a few minutes a day. Honestly, I think some folks
believe that enlightenment will put them in a perpetual state of
celestial consciousness as if you were always on LSD. That, of course,
would not be very practical. Basically it is an "inner silence" which
is not pervasive or you could never deal with everyday situations.
You'd just have to sit there like a lump. People here who experience
that "inner silence" (and I believe there are probably more than a few
here who do) know that they have it when they focus on it but when they
need to focus on worldly things it doesn't get in the way.

I know a number of people who even just doing TM will say "CC was a long
time ago." Whether you got there or not seems to depend on your nervous
system or maybe if you are more spiritually inclined then development in
past incarnations. People like to say that those who popped into are
probably "old souls." So even the spiritual community will have a group
who is sorry to say "left behind." If you could force them into
enlightenment they might not be able to handle it.

Believe me, I also know people who practiced TM and said they never
experienced transcendence just some relaxation. I hope they only paid no
more than $75 for it then.

Another faux paus is that some people believe there are personality
markers that indicate "enlightenment". That is not true at all. So you
can't judge the "book by it's cover" especially on the Internet. ;-)
Post by Share Long ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
First of all, I'm familiar with spiritual groups who proclaim people
enlightened. I didn't always agree with their proclamations! And as
mentioned, I know of a group who gives certificates of enlightenment.
Maybe they use different criteria than me! I also know people in the
TMO who I think are pretty darn enlightened. But of course they don't
proclaim themselves as such.
The whole thing is such a hodge podge that I simply ignore all the
posturing and go by my own sense of a person. And actually, it doesn't
matter to me whether or not they're "enlightened." There are other
qualities that I value more.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Sent:* Tuesday, November 18, 2014 12:06 PM
*Subject:* Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor
Post by Bhairitu ***@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]
*/It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've
always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to
enlightenment on the planet," coming from an organization that in
over 50 years has been unable to produce even a single person they
can point at and say, "This person is enlightened, and got that way
as a result of practicing TM."/*
What organization does?
*/Just to make a point about the kinds of bullshit humans are willing
to accept, think about the TM sales pitch for enlightenment, compared
to almost anything else being sold on this planet:/*
*/
/*
*/-- "So, that's your introductory lecture. Just sign here, pay us
your $75, and we promise you that you will be fully enlightened in
five years." /(Please note that this actually *happened* with the TM
movement.)*
*/
/*
*/-- "Sounds good, but looking into my crystal ball that shows me the
future, I can see that what you're trying to sell me isn't going to
cost me only $75, but tens of thousands of dollars over 30 or 40
years, to pay for all the extra courses and 'add-ons' you'll try to
sell me. What can you show me to convince me that this
'enlightenment' you're trying to sell me will actually occur, and
that if it does, it's worth it?/*
*/
/*
*/-- "Well, you just have to trust us. Give us your money now, and in
5 to 8 years (ooops, sorry about that) you'll be enlightened. And
you've heard the lectures -- when you're enlightened, you'll be able
to know everything and have everything you want just by wanting it.
Isn't that worth the hundreds of thousands of dollars (ooops again)
you'll wind up paying us?"/*
*/
/*
*/-- "It *might* be worth it, but what can you show me to prove to me
that this 'enlightenment' you're selling me actually exists? For
example, there are many people here in the room today who have been
practicing TM for more than 8 years, the maximum time you say it will
take to become enlightened. Point out the ones who are enlightened,
and let me talk to them to figure out if this is all going to be
worth it."/*
*/
/*
*/-- "Sorry. <insert reverential tone of bullshit here> 'We don't
talk about our individual state of consciousness.'"/*
*/
/*
*/-- "WTF? So you're saying that I just have to TRUST you about all
this enlightenment stuff, and you are NEVER going to show me anyone
who you can guarantee has achieved it?"/*
*/
/*
*/-- "That's right."/*
*/
/*
*/-- "You DO know that this is insane, right? Promising the 'fastest
path' to something you'll later refuse to ever produce?"/*
*/
/*
*/-- "You think WE'RE insane? Talk to the millions of people who
bought this exact sales pitch hook, line, and sinker."
/*
*/
/*
*/:-)/*
It's a "path to enlightenment" but my point was that no organization I
know of guarantees it. You can't. It even goes against TM teaching
because one's progress is dependent on the state of their nervous
system. And by no means would it be the fastest. It really is just a
meditation for the masses. It's nothing special other than it was
probably better organized than some of the other front runners.
*/Bhairitu, it's not "guaranteeing enlightenment" that I'm riffing on
for hopefully humorous purposes. It's the promising it for 50 years
and never *producing* it I'm riffing on. /*
*/
/*
*/That, and the fact that they got away with it because their
clientele was too stupid to ever say, "Now wait a minute...where are
all these enlightened people you promised me I'd be surrounded by and
be one of? Point them out to me. Show me an enlightened person."
/*
*/
/*
*/Someone saying that -- *anyone* saying that -- would have been the
counterpart of the line in the fairy tale that goes, "Uh, guys...you
*have* noticed that the Emperor has no clothes on, right?" Asked to
put up or shut up and actually *produce* a "certified TM enlightened
person," the TMO wouldn't have been able to do so.
/*
*/
/*
*/It's all a house of cards perpetuated by the fact that no one ever
says, "Show me an enlightened person."
/*
*/
/*
*/
/*
*/
/*
fleetwood_macncheese@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-19 13:06:13 UTC
Permalink
Some funny points, like enlightenment would be an LSD trip. Hilarious what the mind imagines as a peaceful state, prior to accomplishing it. The ironic thing is, that once the state establishes itself, the world changes to one that was unimaginable anyway, because there is finally peace within, and that changes everything. As for the personality traits, I find myself more sensitive as the natural expansion of life continues, but otherwise, the main change is the lack of attachment, evident in CC, and so the personality actually gains a greater range, because there is nothing, except judgment, holding it back - everything becomes known, but not everything is expressed. That non-attachment allows the mind to go anywhere it likes; many more cultural and natural edges to explore.

As far as old souls, I don't know what is old, except I do know some younger people who are fully enlightened, without having done any techniques, and who have absolutely no interest in spiritual pursuits like meditation. It is not a compartmentalized world for them, like it was for us, with a dedicated spiritual path - That sensitivity and awareness is already baked in, so although they recognize spiritual life and God as natural components to life, those elements have no special significance, because they came onto the planet with that consciousness, already.
---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :
I've always said the "experiencing enlightenment" is the thing to say even if it is for a few minutes a day. Honestly, I think some folks believe that enlightenment will put them in a perpetual state of celestial consciousness as if you were always on LSD. That, of course, would not be very practical. Basically it is an "inner silence" which is not pervasive or you could never deal with everyday situations. You'd just have to sit there like a lump. People here who experience that "inner silence" (and I believe there are probably more than a few here who do) know that they have it when they focus on it but when they need to focus on worldly things it doesn't get in the way.

I know a number of people who even just doing TM will say "CC was a long time ago." Whether you got there or not seems to depend on your nervous system or maybe if you are more spiritually inclined then development in past incarnations. People like to say that those who popped into are probably "old souls." So even the spiritual community will have a group who is sorry to say "left behind." If you could force them into enlightenment they might not be able to handle it.

Believe me, I also know people who practiced TM and said they never experienced transcendence just some relaxation. I hope they only paid no more than $75 for it then.

Another faux paus is that some people believe there are personality markers that indicate "enlightenment". That is not true at all. So you can't judge the "book by it's cover" especially on the Internet. ;-)

On 11/18/2014 11:26 AM, Share Long ***@... mailto:***@... [FairfieldLife] wrote:

First of all, I'm familiar with spiritual groups who proclaim people enlightened. I didn't always agree with their proclamations! And as mentioned, I know of a group who gives certificates of enlightenment. Maybe they use different criteria than me! I also know people in the TMO who I think are pretty darn enlightened. But of course they don't proclaim themselves as such.

The whole thing is such a hodge podge that I simply ignore all the posturing and go by my own sense of a person. And actually, it doesn't matter to me whether or not they're "enlightened." There are other qualities that I value more.
From: "TurquoiseBee ***@... mailto:***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com> mailto:***@yahoogroups.com
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" mailto:***@yahoogroups.com <***@yahoogroups.com> mailto:***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor


From: "Bhairitu ***@... mailto:***@... [FairfieldLife]"




On 11/18/2014 09:17 AM, TurquoiseBee ***@... mailto:***@... [FairfieldLife] wrote:

From: "Bhairitu ***@... mailto:***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com> mailto:***@yahoogroups.com


On11/18/2014 04:26 AM, TurquoiseBee ***@... mailto:***@... [FairfieldLife] wrote:

It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and say, "This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of practicing TM."






What organization does?


Just to make a point about the kinds of bullshit humans are willing to accept, think about the TM sales pitch for enlightenment, compared to almost anything else being sold on this planet:


-- "So, that's your introductory lecture. Just sign here, pay us your $75, and we promise you that you will be fully enlightened in five years." (Please note that this actually *happened* with the TM movement.)


--"Sounds good, but looking into my crystal ball that shows me the future, I can see that what you're trying to sell me isn't going to cost me only $75, but tens of thousands of dollars over 30 or 40 years, to pay for all the extra courses and 'add-ons' you'll try to sell me. What can you show me to convince me that this 'enlightenment' you're trying to sell me will actually occur, and that if it does, it's worth it?


-- "Well, you just have to trust us. Give us your money now, and in 5 to 8 years (ooops, sorry about that) you'll be enlightened. And you've heard the lectures -- when you're enlightened, you'll be able to know everything and have everything you want just by wanting it. Isn't that worth the hundreds of thousands of dollars (ooops again) you'll wind up paying us?"


--"It *might* be worth it, but what can you show me to prove to me that this 'enlightenment' you're selling me actually exists? For example, there are many people here in the room today who have been practicing TM for more than 8 years, the maximum time you say it will take to become enlightened. Point out the ones who are enlightened, and let me talk to them to figure out if this is all going to be worth it."


-- "Sorry. <insert reverential tone of bullshit here> 'We don't talk about our individual state of consciousness.'"


--"WTF? So you're saying that I just have to TRUST you about all this enlightenment stuff, and you are NEVER going to show me anyone who you can guarantee has achieved it?"


-- "That's right."


--"You DO know that this is insane, right? Promising the 'fastest path' to something you'll later refuse to ever produce?"


-- "You think WE'RE insane? Talk to the millions of people who bought this exact sales pitch hook, line, and sinker."



:-)













It's a "path to enlightenment" but my point was that no organization I know of guarantees it. You can't. It even goes against TM teaching because one's progress is dependent on the state of their nervous system. And by no means would it be the fastest. It really is just a meditation for the masses. It's nothing special other than it was probably better organized than some of the other front runners.



Bhairitu, it's not "guaranteeing enlightenment" that I'm riffing on for hopefully humorous purposes. It's the promising it for 50 years and never *producing* it I'm riffing on.


That, and the fact that they got away with it because their clientele was too stupid to ever say, "Now wait a minute...where are all these enlightened people you promised me I'd be surrounded by and be one of? Point them out to me. Show me an enlightened person."







Someone saying that -- *anyone* saying that -- would have been the counterpart of the line in the fairy tale that goes, "Uh, guys...you *have* noticed that the Emperor has no clothes on, right?" Asked to put up or shut up and actually *produce* a "certified TM enlightened person," the TMO wouldn't have been able to do so.



It's all a house of cards perpetuated by the fact that no one ever says, "Show me an enlightened person."
Share Long sharelong60@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-19 15:37:19 UTC
Permalink
Bhairitu, I find what you write here rich in both common sense and subtle insights. What's tricky about inner silence or the Self, etc. is that the minute you're talking about it, you've turned it into an object. And of course it isn't. For me, a better strategy has been to not try and do that at all. Except for this post (-:
I sometimes envy the kapha types who seem so enlightened to me just because they're calm by nature.
From: "Bhairitu ***@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 2:13 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

  I've always said the "experiencing enlightenment" is the thing to say even if it is for a few minutes a day.  Honestly, I think some folks believe that enlightenment will put them in a perpetual state of celestial consciousness as if you were always on LSD.  That, of course, would not be very practical.  Basically it is an "inner silence" which is not pervasive or you could never deal with everyday situations.  You'd just have to sit there like a lump.  People here who experience that "inner silence" (and I believe there are probably more than a few here who do) know that they have it when they focus on it but when they need to focus on worldly things it doesn't get in the way.

I know a number of people who even just doing TM will say "CC was a long time ago." Whether you got there or not seems to depend on your nervous system or maybe if you are more spiritually inclined then development in past incarnations. People like to say that those who popped into are probably "old souls."  So even the spiritual community will have a group who is sorry to say "left behind."  If you could force them into enlightenment they might not be able to handle it.

Believe me, I also know people who practiced TM and said they never experienced transcendence just some relaxation. I hope they only paid no more than $75 for it then.

Another faux paus is that some people believe there are personality markers that indicate "enlightenment". That is not true at all.  So you can't judge the "book by it's cover" especially on the Internet.  ;-)

On 11/18/2014 11:26 AM, Share Long ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote:



  First of all, I'm familiar with spiritual groups who proclaim people enlightened. I didn't always agree with their proclamations! And as mentioned, I know of a group who gives certificates of enlightenment.  Maybe they use different criteria than me! I also know people in the TMO who I think are pretty darn enlightened. But of course they don't proclaim themselves as such.
The whole thing is such a hodge podge that I simply ignore all the posturing and go by my own sense of a person. And actually, it doesn't matter to me whether or not they're "enlightened." There are other qualities that I value more.
From: "TurquoiseBee ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

  From: "Bhairitu ***@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]"
 

On 11/18/2014 09:17 AM, TurquoiseBee ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote:

  From: "Bhairitu ***@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>

On 11/18/2014 04:26 AM, TurquoiseBee ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote:
  It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and say, "This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of practicing TM."



What organization does?
Just to make a point about the kinds of bullshit humans are willing to accept, think about the TM sales pitch for enlightenment, compared to almost anything else being sold on this planet:
-- "So, that's your introductory lecture. Just sign here, pay us your $75, and we promise you that you will be fully enlightened in five years."  (Please note that this actually *happened* with the TM movement.)
-- "Sounds good, but looking into my crystal ball that shows me the future, I can see that what you're trying to sell me isn't going to cost me only $75, but tens of thousands of dollars over 30 or 40 years, to pay for all the extra courses and 'add-ons' you'll try to sell me. What can you show me to convince me that this 'enlightenment' you're trying to sell me will actually occur, and that if it does, it's worth it?
-- "Well, you just have to trust us. Give us your money now, and in 5 to 8 years (ooops, sorry about that) you'll be enlightened. And you've heard the lectures -- when you're enlightened, you'll be able to know everything and have everything you want just by wanting it. Isn't that worth the hundreds of thousands of dollars (ooops again) you'll wind up paying us?"
-- "It *might* be worth it, but what can you show me to prove to me that this 'enlightenment' you're selling me actually exists? For example, there are many people here in the room today who have been practicing TM for more than 8 years, the maximum time you say it will take to become enlightened. Point out the ones who are enlightened, and let me talk to them to figure out if this is all going to be worth it."
-- "Sorry. <insert reverential tone of bullshit here> 'We don't talk about our individual state of consciousness.'"
-- "WTF? So you're saying that I just have to TRUST you about all this enlightenment stuff, and you are NEVER going to show me anyone who you can guarantee has achieved it?"
-- "That's right."
-- "You DO know that this is insane, right? Promising the 'fastest path' to something you'll later refuse to ever produce?"
-- "You think WE'RE insane? Talk to the millions of people who bought this exact sales pitch hook, line, and sinker." 

:-)


It's a "path to enlightenment" but my point was that no organization I know of guarantees it.  You can't.  It even goes against TM teaching because one's progress is dependent on the state of their nervous system.  And by no means would it be the fastest.  It really is just a meditation for the masses.  It's nothing special other than it was probably better organized than some of the other front runners.

Bhairitu, it's not "guaranteeing enlightenment" that I'm riffing on for hopefully humorous purposes. It's the promising it for 50 years and never *producing* it I'm riffing on. 
That, and the fact that they got away with it because their clientele was too stupid to ever say, "Now wait a minute...where are all these enlightened people you promised me I'd be surrounded by and be one of? Point them out to me. Show me an enlightened person."

Someone saying that -- *anyone* saying that -- would have been the counterpart of the line in the fairy tale that goes, "Uh, guys...you *have* noticed that the Emperor has no clothes on, right?" Asked to put up or shut up and actually *produce* a "certified TM enlightened person," the TMO wouldn't have been able to do so.

It's all a house of cards perpetuated by the fact that no one ever says, "Show me an enlightened person."








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'Richard J. Williams' punditster@gmail.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-19 17:48:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Share Long ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
Bhairitu, I find what you write here rich in both common sense and
subtle insights. What's tricky about inner silence or the Self, etc.
is that the minute you're talking about it, you've turned it into an
object. And of course it isn't. For me, a better strategy has been to
I sometimes envy the kapha types who seem so enlightened to me just
because they're calm by nature.
/There's just not much anyone can say about the Absolute except say what
it isn't.

One of the most absurd rumors I ever heard was the rumor about MMY
"promising enlightenment in 5-7 years", which is absurd because, by that
time there were TMers who had been practicing TM for over 10 years in
India. Go figure./
Post by Share Long ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Sent:* Tuesday, November 18, 2014 2:13 PM
*Subject:* Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor
I've always said the "experiencing enlightenment" is the thing to say
even if it is for a few minutes a day. Honestly, I think some folks
believe that enlightenment will put them in a perpetual state of
celestial consciousness as if you were always on LSD. That, of
course, would not be very practical. Basically it is an "inner
silence" which is not pervasive or you could never deal with everyday
situations. You'd just have to sit there like a lump. People here
who experience that "inner silence" (and I believe there are probably
more than a few here who do) know that they have it when they focus on
it but when they need to focus on worldly things it doesn't get in the
way.
I know a number of people who even just doing TM will say "CC was a
long time ago." Whether you got there or not seems to depend on your
nervous system or maybe if you are more spiritually inclined then
development in past incarnations. People like to say that those who
popped into are probably "old souls." So even the spiritual community
will have a group who is sorry to say "left behind." If you could
force them into enlightenment they might not be able to handle it.
Believe me, I also know people who practiced TM and said they never
experienced transcendence just some relaxation. I hope they only paid
no more than $75 for it then.
Another faux paus is that some people believe there are personality
markers that indicate "enlightenment". That is not true at all. So
you can't judge the "book by it's cover" especially on the Internet. ;-)
Post by Share Long ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
First of all, I'm familiar with spiritual groups who proclaim people
enlightened. I didn't always agree with their proclamations! And as
mentioned, I know of a group who gives certificates of
enlightenment. Maybe they use different criteria than me! I also
know people in the TMO who I think are pretty darn enlightened. But
of course they don't proclaim themselves as such.
The whole thing is such a hodge podge that I simply ignore all the
posturing and go by my own sense of a person. And actually, it
doesn't matter to me whether or not they're "enlightened." There are
other qualities that I value more.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Sent:* Tuesday, November 18, 2014 12:06 PM
*Subject:* Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor
Post by Bhairitu ***@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]
*/It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but
I've always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to
enlightenment on the planet," coming from an organization that in
over 50 years has been unable to produce even a single person they
can point at and say, "This person is enlightened, and got that way
as a result of practicing TM."/*
What organization does?
*/Just to make a point about the kinds of bullshit humans are
willing to accept, think about the TM sales pitch for enlightenment,
compared to almost anything else being sold on this planet:/*
*/
/*
*/-- "So, that's your introductory lecture. Just sign here, pay us
your $75, and we promise you that you will be fully enlightened in
five years." /(Please note that this actually *happened* with the TM
movement.)*
*/
/*
*/-- "Sounds good, but looking into my crystal ball that shows me
the future, I can see that what you're trying to sell me isn't going
to cost me only $75, but tens of thousands of dollars over 30 or 40
years, to pay for all the extra courses and 'add-ons' you'll try to
sell me. What can you show me to convince me that this
'enlightenment' you're trying to sell me will actually occur, and
that if it does, it's worth it?/*
*/
/*
*/-- "Well, you just have to trust us. Give us your money now, and
in 5 to 8 years (ooops, sorry about that) you'll be enlightened. And
you've heard the lectures -- when you're enlightened, you'll be able
to know everything and have everything you want just by wanting it.
Isn't that worth the hundreds of thousands of dollars (ooops again)
you'll wind up paying us?"/*
*/
/*
*/-- "It *might* be worth it, but what can you show me to prove to
me that this 'enlightenment' you're selling me actually exists? For
example, there are many people here in the room today who have been
practicing TM for more than 8 years, the maximum time you say it
will take to become enlightened. Point out the ones who are
enlightened, and let me talk to them to figure out if this is all
going to be worth it."/*
*/
/*
*/-- "Sorry. <insert reverential tone of bullshit here> 'We don't
talk about our individual state of consciousness.'"/*
*/
/*
*/-- "WTF? So you're saying that I just have to TRUST you about all
this enlightenment stuff, and you are NEVER going to show me anyone
who you can guarantee has achieved it?"/*
*/
/*
*/-- "That's right."/*
*/
/*
*/-- "You DO know that this is insane, right? Promising the 'fastest
path' to something you'll later refuse to ever produce?"/*
*/
/*
*/-- "You think WE'RE insane? Talk to the millions of people who
bought this exact sales pitch hook, line, and sinker."
/*
*/
/*
*/:-)/*
It's a "path to enlightenment" but my point was that no organization
I know of guarantees it. You can't. It even goes against TM
teaching because one's progress is dependent on the state of their
nervous system. And by no means would it be the fastest. It really
is just a meditation for the masses. It's nothing special other than
it was probably better organized than some of the other front runners.
*/Bhairitu, it's not "guaranteeing enlightenment" that I'm riffing on
for hopefully humorous purposes. It's the promising it for 50 years
and never *producing* it I'm riffing on. /*
*/
/*
*/That, and the fact that they got away with it because their
clientele was too stupid to ever say, "Now wait a minute...where are
all these enlightened people you promised me I'd be surrounded by and
be one of? Point them out to me. Show me an enlightened person."
/*
*/
/*
*/Someone saying that -- *anyone* saying that -- would have been the
counterpart of the line in the fairy tale that goes, "Uh, guys...you
*have* noticed that the Emperor has no clothes on, right?" Asked to
put up or shut up and actually *produce* a "certified TM enlightened
person," the TMO wouldn't have been able to do so.
/*
*/
/*
*/It's all a house of cards perpetuated by the fact that no one ever
says, "Show me an enlightened person."
/*
*/
/*
*/
/*
*/
/*
Michael Jackson mjackson74@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-18 18:19:10 UTC
Permalink
Share claims some orgs are giving out certificates in enlightenment so they must guarantee it somehow or other.

From: "Bhairitu ***@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 12:45 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

 

On 11/18/2014 09:17 AM, TurquoiseBee ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote:

  From: "Bhairitu ***@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>

On 11/18/2014 04:26 AM, TurquoiseBee ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote:
  It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and say, "This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of practicing TM."



What organization does?
Just to make a point about the kinds of bullshit humans are willing to accept, think about the TM sales pitch for enlightenment, compared to almost anything else being sold on this planet:
-- "So, that's your introductory lecture. Just sign here, pay us your $75, and we promise you that you will be fully enlightened in five years."  (Please note that this actually *happened* with the TM movement.)
-- "Sounds good, but looking into my crystal ball that shows me the future, I can see that what you're trying to sell me isn't going to cost me only $75, but tens of thousands of dollars over 30 or 40 years, to pay for all the extra courses and 'add-ons' you'll try to sell me. What can you show me to convince me that this 'enlightenment' you're trying to sell me will actually occur, and that if it does, it's worth it?
-- "Well, you just have to trust us. Give us your money now, and in 5 to 8 years (ooops, sorry about that) you'll be enlightened. And you've heard the lectures -- when you're enlightened, you'll be able to know everything and have everything you want just by wanting it. Isn't that worth the hundreds of thousands of dollars (ooops again) you'll wind up paying us?"
-- "It *might* be worth it, but what can you show me to prove to me that this 'enlightenment' you're selling me actually exists? For example, there are many people here in the room today who have been practicing TM for more than 8 years, the maximum time you say it will take to become enlightened. Point out the ones who are enlightened, and let me talk to them to figure out if this is all going to be worth it."
-- "Sorry. <insert reverential tone of bullshit here> 'We don't talk about our individual state of consciousness.'"
-- "WTF? So you're saying that I just have to TRUST you about all this enlightenment stuff, and you are NEVER going to show me anyone who you can guarantee has achieved it?"
-- "That's right."
-- "You DO know that this is insane, right? Promising the 'fastest path' to something you'll later refuse to ever produce?"
-- "You think WE'RE insane? Talk to the millions of people who bought this exact sales pitch hook, line, and sinker." 

:-)



It's a "path to enlightenment" but my point was that no organization I know of guarantees it.  You can't.  It even goes against TM teaching because one's progress is dependent on the state of their nervous system.  And by no means would it be the fastest.  It really is just a meditation for the masses.  It's nothing special other than it was probably better organized than some of the other front runners.


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Share Long sharelong60@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-18 19:11:08 UTC
Permalink
I only know that the Oneness organization headed by Bhagavan and Amma give such certificates to those who are authorized to give diksha by touch. There are only about 60 who give diksha by sight and their requirements are much more strenuous.
From: "Michael Jackson ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 12:19 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

  Share claims some orgs are giving out certificates in enlightenment so they must guarantee it somehow or other.



From: "Bhairitu ***@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 12:45 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

 

On 11/18/2014 09:17 AM, TurquoiseBee ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote:

  From: "Bhairitu ***@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>

On 11/18/2014 04:26 AM, TurquoiseBee ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote:
  It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and say, "This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of practicing TM."



What organization does?
Just to make a point about the kinds of bullshit humans are willing to accept, think about the TM sales pitch for enlightenment, compared to almost anything else being sold on this planet:
-- "So, that's your introductory lecture. Just sign here, pay us your $75, and we promise you that you will be fully enlightened in five years."  (Please note that this actually *happened* with the TM movement.)
-- "Sounds good, but looking into my crystal ball that shows me the future, I can see that what you're trying to sell me isn't going to cost me only $75, but tens of thousands of dollars over 30 or 40 years, to pay for all the extra courses and 'add-ons' you'll try to sell me. What can you show me to convince me that this 'enlightenment' you're trying to sell me will actually occur, and that if it does, it's worth it?
-- "Well, you just have to trust us. Give us your money now, and in 5 to 8 years (ooops, sorry about that) you'll be enlightened. And you've heard the lectures -- when you're enlightened, you'll be able to know everything and have everything you want just by wanting it. Isn't that worth the hundreds of thousands of dollars (ooops again) you'll wind up paying us?"
-- "It *might* be worth it, but what can you show me to prove to me that this 'enlightenment' you're selling me actually exists? For example, there are many people here in the room today who have been practicing TM for more than 8 years, the maximum time you say it will take to become enlightened. Point out the ones who are enlightened, and let me talk to them to figure out if this is all going to be worth it."
-- "Sorry. <insert reverential tone of bullshit here> 'We don't talk about our individual state of consciousness.'"
-- "WTF? So you're saying that I just have to TRUST you about all this enlightenment stuff, and you are NEVER going to show me anyone who you can guarantee has achieved it?"
-- "That's right."
-- "You DO know that this is insane, right? Promising the 'fastest path' to something you'll later refuse to ever produce?"
-- "You think WE'RE insane? Talk to the millions of people who bought this exact sales pitch hook, line, and sinker." 

:-)



It's a "path to enlightenment" but my point was that no organization I know of guarantees it.  You can't.  It even goes against TM teaching because one's progress is dependent on the state of their nervous system.  And by no means would it be the fastest.  It really is just a meditation for the masses.  It's nothing special other than it was probably better organized than some of the other front runners.




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Bhairitu noozguru@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-18 17:52:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bhairitu ***@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]
*/It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've
always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment
on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has
been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and
say, "This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of
practicing TM."/*
What organization does?
*/Just to make a point about the kinds of bullshit humans are willing
to accept, think about the TM sales pitch for enlightenment, compared
to almost anything else being sold on this planet:/*
*/
/*
*/-- "So, that's your introductory lecture. Just sign here, pay us
your $75, and we promise you that you will be fully enlightened in
five years." /(Please note that this actually *happened* with the TM
movement.)*
*/
/*
*/-- "Sounds good, but looking into my crystal ball that shows me the
future, I can see that what you're trying to sell me isn't going to
cost me only $75, but tens of thousands of dollars over 30 or 40
years, to pay for all the extra courses and 'add-ons' you'll try to
sell me. What can you show me to convince me that this 'enlightenment'
you're trying to sell me will actually occur, and that if it does,
it's worth it?/*
*/
/*
*/-- "Well, you just have to trust us. Give us your money now, and in
5 to 8 years (ooops, sorry about that) you'll be enlightened. And
you've heard the lectures -- when you're enlightened, you'll be able
to know everything and have everything you want just by wanting it.
Isn't that worth the hundreds of thousands of dollars (ooops again)
you'll wind up paying us?"/*
*/
/*
*/-- "It *might* be worth it, but what can you show me to prove to me
that this 'enlightenment' you're selling me actually exists? For
example, there are many people here in the room today who have been
practicing TM for more than 8 years, the maximum time you say it will
take to become enlightened. Point out the ones who are enlightened,
and let me talk to them to figure out if this is all going to be worth
it."/*
*/
/*
*/-- "Sorry. <insert reverential tone of bullshit here> 'We don't talk
about our individual state of consciousness.'"/*
*/
/*
*/-- "WTF? So you're saying that I just have to TRUST you about all
this enlightenment stuff, and you are NEVER going to show me anyone
who you can guarantee has achieved it?"/*
*/
/*
*/-- "That's right."/*
*/
/*
*/-- "You DO know that this is insane, right? Promising the 'fastest
path' to something you'll later refuse to ever produce?"/*
*/
/*
*/-- "You think WE'RE insane? Talk to the millions of people who
bought this exact sales pitch hook, line, and sinker."
/*
*/
/*
*/:-)/*
But now I have to ask: did you claim this in *your* intro lectures? Are
you guilty as charged? I don't recall claiming this in mine. :-D
TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-18 18:13:01 UTC
Permalink
From: "Bhairitu ***@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>

On 11/18/2014 09:17 AM, TurquoiseBee ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote:


  From: "Bhairitu ***@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>

On 11/18/2014 04:26 AM, TurquoiseBee ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote:
  It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and say, "This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of practicing TM."



What organization does?
Just to make a point about the kinds of bullshit humans are willing to accept, think about the TM sales pitch for enlightenment, compared to almost anything else being sold on this planet:
-- "So, that's your introductory lecture. Just sign here, pay us your $75, and we promise you that you will be fully enlightened in five years."  (Please note that this actually *happened* with the TM movement.)
-- "Sounds good, but looking into my crystal ball that shows me the future, I can see that what you're trying to sell me isn't going to cost me only $75, but tens of thousands of dollars over 30 or 40 years, to pay for all the extra courses and 'add-ons' you'll try to sell me. What can you show me to convince me that this 'enlightenment' you're trying to sell me will actually occur, and that if it does, it's worth it?
-- "Well, you just have to trust us. Give us your money now, and in 5 to 8 years (ooops, sorry about that) you'll be enlightened. And you've heard the lectures -- when you're enlightened, you'll be able to know everything and have everything you want just by wanting it. Isn't that worth the hundreds of thousands of dollars (ooops again) you'll wind up paying us?"
-- "It *might* be worth it, but what can you show me to prove to me that this 'enlightenment' you're selling me actually exists? For example, there are many people here in the room today who have been practicing TM for more than 8 years, the maximum time you say it will take to become enlightened. Point out the ones who are enlightened, and let me talk to them to figure out if this is all going to be worth it."
-- "Sorry. <insert reverential tone of bullshit here> 'We don't talk about our individual state of consciousness.'"
-- "WTF? So you're saying that I just have to TRUST you about all this enlightenment stuff, and you are NEVER going to show me anyone who you can guarantee has achieved it?"
-- "That's right."
-- "You DO know that this is insane, right? Promising the 'fastest path' to something you'll later refuse to ever produce?"
-- "You think WE'RE insane? Talk to the millions of people who bought this exact sales pitch hook, line, and sinker." 

:-)



But now I have to ask: did you claim this in your intro lectures?  Are you guilty as charged?  I don't recall claiming this in mine.  :-D
The claims in intro lectures and printed brochures guaranteeing enlightenment in 5 to 8 years were from the 1967-1969 period. I didn't become a TM teacher until 1972.
I am not enough of a TM movement historian to document exactly *when* such claims began to disappear from TM lectures and promotional materials, but I would bet that it was coincidentally about five years after they first appeared.  :-)
'Richard J. Williams' punditster@gmail.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-19 00:03:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bhairitu ***@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]
Post by Bhairitu ***@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]
*/
/*
*/-- "So, that's your introductory lecture. Just sign here, pay us
your $75, and we promise you that you will be fully enlightened in
five years."
/*
But now I have to ask: did you claim this in *your* intro lectures?
Are you guilty as charged? I don't recall claiming this in mine. :-D
*/The claims in intro lectures and printed brochures guaranteeing
enlightenment in 5 to 8 years were from the 1967-1969 period. I didn't
become a TM teacher until 1972./*
This is false - there are no TMO posters or flyers /"promising
enlightenment in 5-8 years"/ from 1967-1969, or any other time. If there
were, we could read them on TranceNet or the TM-Free blog. This is just
something Barry made up, like charging $75 for a free TM introductory
lecture. Go figure.
Post by Bhairitu ***@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]
*/I am not enough of a TM movement historian to document exactly
*when* such claims began to disappear from TM lectures and promotional
materials, but I would bet that it was coincidentally about five years
after they first appeared. :-)/*
http://minet.org/www.trancenet.net/secrets/

http://tmfree.blogspot.com/
'Richard J. Williams' punditster@gmail.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-18 23:30:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bhairitu ***@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]
Post by Bhairitu ***@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]
What organization does?
*/Just to make a point about the kinds of bullshit humans are willing
to accept, think about the TM sales pitch for enlightenment, compared
to almost anything else being sold on this planet:/*
*/
/*
*/-- "So, that's your introductory lecture. Just sign here, pay us
your $75, and we promise you that you will be fully enlightened in
five years." /*
But now I have to ask: did you claim this in *your* intro lectures?
Are you guilty as charged? I don't recall claiming this in mine. :-D
The rumor is that's why he got kicked out of the TMO - for trying to act
like a used car salesman, making stuff up, and charging $75 for a free
TM introductory lecture. I wonder what he did with all the money? Go figure.
salyavin808
2014-11-18 17:54:08 UTC
Permalink
---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

From: "Bhairitu ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>


On 11/18/2014 04:26 AM, TurquoiseBee ***@... mailto:***@... [FairfieldLife] wrote:

It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and say, "This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of practicing TM."






What organization does?


Just to make a point about the kinds of bullshit humans are willing to accept, think about the TM sales pitch for enlightenment, compared to almost anything else being sold on this planet:


Snip


-- "You DO know that this is insane, right? Promising the 'fastest path' to something you'll later refuse to ever produce?"


-- "You think WE'RE insane? Talk to the millions of people who bought this exact sales pitch hook, line, and sinker."



:-)






Inspired. Here's a genuine conversation I had with a TM teacher at the academy:


"When you are enlightened you only have to desire something and it will be fulfilled instantly"


Really, what anything? I've got some pretty wild dreams you know..


"Ah, but when you are enlightened your desires are fully in tune with the Laws of Nature so they may be different to what they are now"


More modest perhaps? Not so many lottery wins, time machines and supermodel girlfriends?


"You won't desire money or sex because your desires are already fulfilled"


So what will I desire then?


"Rice and dhal. Provided you have a job"


Huh? I don't even get free money?


"It doesn't work with money, money isn't part of natural law"


But the Time Machine, I'll get that?


"I guarantee it"




(On my life that was a true conversation. Except for the rice and dhal answer. This guy had NO sense of humour)
Michael Jackson mjackson74@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-18 18:23:47 UTC
Permalink
Even after all I have seen and heard some of the TM junkie mentality is still hard to believe.

From: salyavin808 <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 12:54 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

 


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

From: "Bhairitu ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>

On 11/18/2014 04:26 AM, ***@... [FairfieldLife] wrote:

 It's not so much a rumor, more ofa sales pitch or claim, but I've always gotten achuckle from "TM is the fastest path toenlightenment on the planet," coming from anorganization that in over 50 years has been unableto produce even a single person they can point atand say, "This person is enlightened, and got thatway as a result of practicing TM."



What organization does?
Just to make a point about the kinds of bullshit humans are willing to accept, think about the TM sales pitch for enlightenment, compared to almost anything else being sold on this planet:
Snip 
-- "You DO know that this is insane, right? Promising the 'fastest path' to something you'll later refuse to ever produce?"
-- "You think WE'RE insane? Talk to the millions of people who bought this exact sales pitch hook, line, and sinker." 

:-)



Inspired. Here's a genuine conversation I had with a TM teacher at the academy:
 "When you are enlightened you only have to desire something and it will be fulfilled instantly"
Really, what anything? I've got some pretty wild dreams you know..
"Ah, but when you are enlightened your desires are fully in tune with the Laws of Nature so they may be different to what they are now"
More modest perhaps? Not so many lottery wins, time machines and supermodel girlfriends?
"You won't desire money or sex because your desires are already fulfilled"
So what will I desire then?
"Rice and dhal. Provided you have a job"
Huh? I don't even get free money?
"It doesn't work with money, money isn't part of natural law"
But the Time Machine, I'll get that?
"I guarantee it"

(On my life that was a true conversation. Except for the rice and dhal answer. This guy had NO sense of humour)







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Share Long sharelong60@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-18 19:15:58 UTC
Permalink
salyavin, I think few folks could match you for sense of humor. Yours is pretty darn developed.

From: salyavin808 <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 11:54 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

 


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

From: "Bhairitu ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>

On 11/18/2014 04:26 AM, ***@... [FairfieldLife] wrote:

 It's not so much a rumor, more ofa sales pitch or claim, but I've always gotten achuckle from "TM is the fastest path toenlightenment on the planet," coming from anorganization that in over 50 years has been unableto produce even a single person they can point atand say, "This person is enlightened, and got thatway as a result of practicing TM."



What organization does?
Just to make a point about the kinds of bullshit humans are willing to accept, think about the TM sales pitch for enlightenment, compared to almost anything else being sold on this planet:
Snip 
-- "You DO know that this is insane, right? Promising the 'fastest path' to something you'll later refuse to ever produce?"
-- "You think WE'RE insane? Talk to the millions of people who bought this exact sales pitch hook, line, and sinker." 

:-)



Inspired. Here's a genuine conversation I had with a TM teacher at the academy:
 "When you are enlightened you only have to desire something and it will be fulfilled instantly"
Really, what anything? I've got some pretty wild dreams you know..
"Ah, but when you are enlightened your desires are fully in tune with the Laws of Nature so they may be different to what they are now"
More modest perhaps? Not so many lottery wins, time machines and supermodel girlfriends?
"You won't desire money or sex because your desires are already fulfilled"
So what will I desire then?
"Rice and dhal. Provided you have a job"
Huh? I don't even get free money?
"It doesn't work with money, money isn't part of natural law"
But the Time Machine, I'll get that?
"I guarantee it"

(On my life that was a true conversation. Except for the rice and dhal answer. This guy had NO sense of humour)







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'Richard J. Williams' punditster@gmail.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-18 23:35:32 UTC
Permalink
*/-- "You think WE'RE insane? Talk to the millions of people who
bought this exact sales pitch hook, line, and sinker."
/*

/*
*/
Post by salyavin808
"When you are enlightened you only have to desire something and it
will be fulfilled instantly"
Really, what anything? I've got some pretty wild dreams you know..
"Ah, but when you are enlightened your desires are fully in tune with
the Laws of Nature so they may be different to what they are now"
More modest perhaps? Not so many lottery wins, time machines and supermodel girlfriends?
"You won't desire money or sex because your desires are already fulfilled"
So what will I desire then?
"Rice and dhal. Provided you have a job"
Huh? I don't even get free money?
"It doesn't work with money, money isn't part of natural law"
But the Time Machine, I'll get that?
"I guarantee it"
(On my life that was a true conversation. Except for the rice and dhal
answer. This guy had NO sense of humour)
/And so you bought it, hook line and sinker, and stayed on at the TM
Center for the next ten years. Go figure./
s3raphita@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-18 23:55:37 UTC
Permalink
"You won't desire money or sex because your desires are already fulfilled"


Shame it didn't work out that way for MMY.














---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :


-- "You think WE'RE insane? Talk to the millions of people who bought this exact sales pitch hook, line, and sinker."

















On 11/18/2014 11:54 AM, salyavin808 wrote:
Inspired. Here's a genuine conversation I had with a TM teacher at the academy:


"When you are enlightened you only have to desire something and it will be fulfilled instantly"


Really, what anything? I've got some pretty wild dreams you know..


"Ah, but when you are enlightened your desires are fully in tune with the Laws of Nature so they may be different to what they are now"


More modest perhaps? Not so many lottery wins, time machines and supermodel girlfriends?


"You won't desire money or sex because your desires are already fulfilled"


So what will I desire then?


"Rice and dhal. Provided you have a job"


Huh? I don't even get free money?


"It doesn't work with money, money isn't part of natural law"


But the Time Machine, I'll get that?


"I guarantee it"


(On my life that was a true conversation. Except for the rice and dhal answer. This guy had NO sense of humour)
And so you bought it, hook line and sinker, and stayed on at the TM Center for the next ten years. Go figure.
s3raphita@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-18 23:56:48 UTC
Permalink
"You won't desire money or sex because your desires are already fulfilled"


Shame it didn't work out that way for MMY














---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :


-- "You think WE'RE insane? Talk to the millions of people who bought this exact sales pitch hook, line, and sinker."

















On 11/18/2014 11:54 AM, salyavin808 wrote:
Inspired. Here's a genuine conversation I had with a TM teacher at the academy:


"When you are enlightened you only have to desire something and it will be fulfilled instantly"


Really, what anything? I've got some pretty wild dreams you know..


"Ah, but when you are enlightened your desires are fully in tune with the Laws of Nature so they may be different to what they are now"


More modest perhaps? Not so many lottery wins, time machines and supermodel girlfriends?


"You won't desire money or sex because your desires are already fulfilled"


So what will I desire then?


"Rice and dhal. Provided you have a job"


Huh? I don't even get free money?


"It doesn't work with money, money isn't part of natural law"


But the Time Machine, I'll get that?


"I guarantee it"


(On my life that was a true conversation. Except for the rice and dhal answer. This guy had NO sense of humour)
And so you bought it, hook line and sinker, and stayed on at the TM Center for the next ten years. Go figure.
s3raphita@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-18 23:59:53 UTC
Permalink
"You won't desire money or sex because your desires are already fulfilled"


Shame it didn't work out that way for MMY
'Richard J. Williams' punditster@gmail.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-19 00:51:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by salyavin808
"You won't desire money or sex because your desires are already fulfilled"
Shame it didn't work out that way for MMY
/Apparently MMY got everything he wanted or needed./
fleetwood_macncheese@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-19 02:51:46 UTC
Permalink
didn't work out that way for me, either. :-)


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

"You won't desire money or sex because your desires are already fulfilled"


Shame it didn't work out that way for MMY
TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-19 07:06:18 UTC
Permalink
Yeah, the kinds of "supporting myths" TM teachers made up around Maharishi's dumb statements were pretty amazing. They felt that they *had* to accept any dumb thing he said, so they'd then have to jump through hoops like this guy to do so. Common sense never entered into it.
From: salyavin808 <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 6:54 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

  ---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

From: "Bhairitu ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>

On 11/18/2014 04:26 AM, ***@... [FairfieldLife] wrote:

 It's not so much a rumor, more ofa sales pitch or claim, but I've always gotten achuckle from "TM is the fastest path toenlightenment on the planet," coming from anorganization that in over 50 years has been unableto produce even a single person they can point atand say, "This person is enlightened, and got thatway as a result of practicing TM."



What organization does?
Just to make a point about the kinds of bullshit humans are willing to accept, think about the TM sales pitch for enlightenment, compared to almost anything else being sold on this planet:
Snip 
-- "You DO know that this is insane, right? Promising the 'fastest path' to something you'll later refuse to ever produce?"
-- "You think WE'RE insane? Talk to the millions of people who bought this exact sales pitch hook, line, and sinker." 

:-)



Inspired. Here's a genuine conversation I had with a TM teacher at the academy:
 "When you are enlightened you only have to desire something and it will be fulfilled instantly"
Really, what anything? I've got some pretty wild dreams you know..
"Ah, but when you are enlightened your desires are fully in tune with the Laws of Nature so they may be different to what they are now"
More modest perhaps? Not so many lottery wins, time machines and supermodel girlfriends?
"You won't desire money or sex because your desires are already fulfilled"
So what will I desire then?
"Rice and dhal. Provided you have a job"
Huh? I don't even get free money?
"It doesn't work with money, money isn't part of natural law"
But the Time Machine, I'll get that?
"I guarantee it"

(On my life that was a true conversation. Except for the rice and dhal answer. This guy had NO sense of humour)







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steve.sundur@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-19 12:27:06 UTC
Permalink
I guess your TM obsession began the day Fred died?

That would make sense.


I think Edg called that one.


Two teachers whose philosophy you bought into.


The second one dies, and then you return to the first.


Okay, makes a little more sense now.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

Yeah, the kinds of "supporting myths" TM teachers made up around Maharishi's dumb statements were pretty amazing. They felt that they *had* to accept any dumb thing he said, so they'd then have to jump through hoops like this guy to do so. Common sense never entered into it.

From: salyavin808 <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 6:54 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

From: "Bhairitu ***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>


On 11/18/2014 04:26 AM, TurquoiseBee ***@... mailto:***@... [FairfieldLife] wrote:

It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and say, "This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of practicing TM."






What organization does?


Just to make a point about the kinds of bullshit humans are willing to accept, think about the TM sales pitch for enlightenment, compared to almost anything else being sold on this planet:


Snip


-- "You DO know that this is insane, right? Promising the 'fastest path' to something you'll later refuse to ever produce?"


-- "You think WE'RE insane? Talk to the millions of people who bought this exact sales pitch hook, line, and sinker."



:-)






Inspired. Here's a genuine conversation I had with a TM teacher at the academy:


"When you are enlightened you only have to desire something and it will be fulfilled instantly"


Really, what anything? I've got some pretty wild dreams you know..


"Ah, but when you are enlightened your desires are fully in tune with the Laws of Nature so they may be different to what they are now"


More modest perhaps? Not so many lottery wins, time machines and supermodel girlfriends?


"You won't desire money or sex because your desires are already fulfilled"


So what will I desire then?


"Rice and dhal. Provided you have a job"


Huh? I don't even get free money?


"It doesn't work with money, money isn't part of natural law"


But the Time Machine, I'll get that?


"I guarantee it"




(On my life that was a true conversation. Except for the rice and dhal answer. This guy had NO sense of humour)
awoelflebater@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-19 15:02:02 UTC
Permalink
---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

I guess your TM obsession began the day Fred died?

That would make sense.


I think Edg called that one.


Two teachers whose philosophy you bought into.


The second one dies, and then you return to the first.


Okay, makes a little more sense now.


Edg delivered the most succinct and laser-like post to bawee I've ever read. I think bawee's hair is still on fire, the little he has left of it.
Michael Jackson mjackson74@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-18 18:15:22 UTC
Permalink
That's excellent - a great summation of the TMO's sales pitches!

From: "TurquoiseBee ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 12:17 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

  From: "Bhairitu ***@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>

On 11/18/2014 04:26 AM, TurquoiseBee ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote:
  It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and say, "This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of practicing TM."



What organization does?
Just to make a point about the kinds of bullshit humans are willing to accept, think about the TM sales pitch for enlightenment, compared to almost anything else being sold on this planet:
-- "So, that's your introductory lecture. Just sign here, pay us your $75, and we promise you that you will be fully enlightened in five years."  (Please note that this actually *happened* with the TM movement.)
-- "Sounds good, but looking into my crystal ball that shows me the future, I can see that what you're trying to sell me isn't going to cost me only $75, but tens of thousands of dollars over 30 or 40 years, to pay for all the extra courses and 'add-ons' you'll try to sell me. What can you show me to convince me that this 'enlightenment' you're trying to sell me will actually occur, and that if it does, it's worth it?
-- "Well, you just have to trust us. Give us your money now, and in 5 to 8 years (ooops, sorry about that) you'll be enlightened. And you've heard the lectures -- when you're enlightened, you'll be able to know everything and have everything you want just by wanting it. Isn't that worth the hundreds of thousands of dollars (ooops again) you'll wind up paying us?"
-- "It *might* be worth it, but what can you show me to prove to me that this 'enlightenment' you're selling me actually exists? For example, there are many people here in the room today who have been practicing TM for more than 8 years, the maximum time you say it will take to become enlightened. Point out the ones who are enlightened, and let me talk to them to figure out if this is all going to be worth it."
-- "Sorry. <insert reverential tone of bullshit here> 'We don't talk about our individual state of consciousness.'"
-- "WTF? So you're saying that I just have to TRUST you about all this enlightenment stuff, and you are NEVER going to show me anyone who you can guarantee has achieved it?"
-- "That's right."
-- "You DO know that this is insane, right? Promising the 'fastest path' to something you'll later refuse to ever produce?"
-- "You think WE'RE insane? Talk to the millions of people who bought this exact sales pitch hook, line, and sinker." 

:-)

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'Richard J. Williams' punditster@gmail.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-18 20:36:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bhairitu ***@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]
*/It's not so much a rumor, more of a sales pitch or claim, but I've
always gotten a chuckle from "TM is the fastest path to enlightenment
on the planet," coming from an organization that in over 50 years has
been unable to produce even a single person they can point at and
say, "This person is enlightened, and got that way as a result of
practicing TM."/*
What organization does?
The Lenz cult sent out Barry to make claims, but they were more than
just enlightenment claims - they made Barry swear to have seen Rama
perform levitation tricks. The funny things is that Barry himslef
admitted that Lenz had never been able to teach anyone else how to
levitate - no cigar.

/"He didn't teach how to *do* these things, at least not in words, but
there was an energetic component to these things that you could not help
but experience yourself, subjectively."/ - TurquoiseB

You have to realize, Jim, that we are dialoging with a guy that doesn't
even realize that he was practicing the /ME/ when he got together with
Lenz and the other students in the desert to meditate. Go figure.

/"Some tantric traditions are very hip to the "exchange of energies"
between individuals, and also hip to the fact that someone who knows how
can artificially add to their own kundalini or life energy by getting
people to focus on them, and then sorta sucking the energy from that
focused attention." - /TurquoiseB
salyavin808
2014-11-18 12:55:20 UTC
Permalink
---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

Made even more interesting in light of the assertion of Deepak Chopra that Marshy himself was poisoned some years ago, with Deepak of course cast in the role of savior, or co-savior perhaps




I'd forgotten all that, the plot thickens! Is the spiritual world this crazy for people in other groups?



From: salyavin808 <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 5:39 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor






---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@yahoogroups.com> wrote :


Indeed. And it was put forward by the infamous Buddhist that used to post here, Vaj.


Of course it was rubbish but it comes from the same sort of place that the other rumours have, the place where Marshy has to be a superman, obviously it's more inspiring if your guru has amazing powers like walking on water. That's why they invent these stories, it makes the decision to follow him to be a more important one than just choosing a type of meditation. Divine assurance perhaps.


But I don't think Vaj invented it, it was part of Earl Kaplan's letter and he got it from whatever source in India he spoke to. I felt a bit sorry for him because he got duped by one cult and ran straight into the arms of another. I hope he's got some smarts at last and realised there is no authority but yourself.




---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

On 11/17/2014 10:11 AM, Michael Jackson wrote:
I think I asked this once a long time ago, but I am posting this again if so:


What was the most absurd TM rumor you ever heard?
The most absurd rumor I ever heard was on an internet discussion group.

The rumor posted claimed that the Maharishi had murdered his master SBS, by poisoning his food in a conspiracy with the Jyotirmath Ashram cook.

The motive apparently was for the Mahesh Yogi to get SBS's special ring and ruby-encrusted yantra. And, with a forged will, the cook would get the Shankaracharya highchair at the Upper Kashi.

As far as rumors go, it is going to be difficult to top this one.
This would be something that was not part of the official TM cannon, nor any of the majorly accepted ones (like Marshy's enlightened, TM brings enlightenment or yogic flying brings world peace)


I am talking about the boundless rumors we all heard on courses and in TM facilities and from TM old timers.


Mine would I think have to be the idea that having animals around when you are meditating drains your energy. That one supposedly came from Marshy himself but who knows.


Other than that it would be Claire Baxter's classic never meditate with your hair wet because the stress you release comes out of your crown chakra, and if your hair is wet the stress slides down your hair and goes into your lower spine.



I include that one second, just because I only heard it from that one person and the animal energy drain was one I heard a lot from lots of different people.



How bout yours? Most absurd TM rumor?
steve.sundur@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-18 13:14:04 UTC
Permalink
always strange, what makes a "good day" for some people. (-:


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@yahoogroups.com> wrote :

--In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

Made even more interesting in light of the assertion of Deepak Chopra that Marshy himself was poisoned some years ago, with Deepak of course cast in the role of savior, or co-savior perhaps




I'd forgotten all that, the plot thickens! Is the spiritual world this crazy for people in other groups?



From: salyavin808 <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 5:39 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor






---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@yahoogroups.com> wrote :


Indeed. And it was put forward by the infamous Buddhist that used to post here, Vaj.


Of course it was rubbish but it comes from the same sort of place that the other rumours have, the place where Marshy has to be a superman, obviously it's more inspiring if your guru has amazing powers like walking on water. That's why they invent these stories, it makes the decision to follow him to be a more important one than just choosing a type of meditation. Divine assurance perhaps.


But I don't think Vaj invented it, it was part of Earl Kaplan's letter and he got it from whatever source in India he spoke to. I felt a bit sorry for him because he got duped by one cult and ran straight into the arms of another. I hope he's got some smarts at last and realised there is no authority but yourself.




---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

On 11/17/2014 10:11 AM, Michael Jackson wrote:
I think I asked this once a long time ago, but I am posting this again if so:


What was the most absurd TM rumor you ever heard?
The most absurd rumor I ever heard was on an internet discussion group.

The rumor posted claimed that the Maharishi had murdered his master SBS, by poisoning his food in a conspiracy with the Jyotirmath Ashram cook.

The motive apparently was for the Mahesh Yogi to get SBS's special ring and ruby-encrusted yantra. And, with a forged will, the cook would get the Shankaracharya highchair at the Upper Kashi.

As far as rumors go, it is going to be difficult to top this one.
This would be something that was not part of the official TM cannon, nor any of the majorly accepted ones (like Marshy's enlightened, TM brings enlightenment or yogic flying brings world peace)


I am talking about the boundless rumors we all heard on courses and in TM facilities and from TM old timers.


Mine would I think have to be the idea that having animals around when you are meditating drains your energy. That one supposedly came from Marshy himself but who knows.


Other than that it would be Claire Baxter's classic never meditate with your hair wet because the stress you release comes out of your crown chakra, and if your hair is wet the stress slides down your hair and goes into your lower spine.



I include that one second, just because I only heard it from that one person and the animal energy drain was one I heard a lot from lots of different people.



How bout yours? Most absurd TM rumor?
TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-18 13:09:53 UTC
Permalink
From: salyavin808 <***@yahoogroups.com>

---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

Made even more interesting in light of the assertion of Deepak Chopra that Marshy himself was poisoned some years ago, with Deepak of course cast in the role of savior, or co-savior perhaps

I'd forgotten all that, the plot thickens! Is the spiritual world this crazy for people in other groups? 
It can get much worse. Any time you have a group of people so lacking in real self-esteem that they gain pretty much ALL of their sense of self-worth from 1) the teacher they work with, 2) the group of people they're part of, or 3) both, you've got the potential for major craziness.
They feel the need to constantly invent new myth-pedestals to put their teachers on, because they believe that the higher they can pretend their teacher is, the higher they are. Even crazier, the groups feel the need to constantly put down other groups, because they believe that if they can make these other groups appear "shorter," they'll appear "taller."

Too bad it doesn't work that way.

From: salyavin808 <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 5:39 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor

---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@yahoogroups.com> wrote :

Indeed. And it was put forward by the infamous Buddhist that used to post here, Vaj.
Of course it was rubbish but it comes from the same sort of place that the other rumours have, the place where Marshy has to be a superman, obviously it's more inspiring if your guru has amazing powers like walking on water. That's why they invent these stories, it makes the decision to follow him to be a more important one than just choosing a type of meditation. Divine assurance perhaps.
But I don't think Vaj invented it, it was part of Earl Kaplan's letter and he got it from whatever source in India he spoke to. I felt a bit sorry for him because he got duped by one cult and ran straight into the arms of another. I hope he's got some smarts at last and realised there is no authority but yourself.
---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

On 11/17/2014 10:11 AM, Michael Jacksonwrote:
 Ithink I asked this once a long time ago, but I amposting this again if so:
Whatwas the most absurd TM rumor you ever heard?
The most absurd rumor I ever heard was on aninternet discussion group.

The rumor posted claimed that the Maharishi had murdered hismaster SBS, by poisoning his food in a conspiracy with theJyotirmath Ashram cook.

The motive apparently was for the Mahesh Yogi to get SBS'sspecial ring and ruby-encrusted yantra. And, with a forged will,the cook would get the Shankaracharya highchair at the UpperKashi.

As far as rumors go, it is going to bedifficult to top this one.
Thiswould be something that was not part of the official TMcannon, nor any of the majorly accepted ones (likeMarshy's enlightened, TM brings enlightenment or yogicflying brings world peace)
I amtalking about the boundless rumors we all heard oncourses and in TM facilities and from TM old timers.
Minewould I think have to be the idea that having animalsaround when you are meditating drains your energy. Thatone supposedly came from Marshy himself but who knows.
Otherthan that it would be Claire Baxter's classic nevermeditate with your hair wet because the stress yourelease comes out of your crown chakra, and if your hairis wet the stress slides down your hair and goes intoyour lower spine.

Iinclude that one second, just because I only heard itfrom that one person and the animal energy drain was oneI heard a lot from lots of different people.

Howbout yours? Most absurd TM rumor?



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steve.sundur@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-18 13:21:44 UTC
Permalink
Is this the reason you troll, so that others will expose your brokenness?

---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

From: salyavin808 <***@yahoogroups.com>

---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

Made even more interesting in light of the assertion of Deepak Chopra that Marshy himself was poisoned some years ago, with Deepak of course cast in the role of savior, or co-savior perhaps




I'd forgotten all that, the plot thickens! Is the spiritual world this crazy for people in other groups?


It can get much worse. Any time you have a group of people so lacking in real self-esteem that they gain pretty much ALL of their sense of self-worth from 1) the teacher they work with, 2) the group of people they're part of, or 3) both, you've got the potential for major craziness.


They feel the need to constantly invent new myth-pedestals to put their teachers on, because they believe that the higher they can pretend their teacher is, the higher they are. Even crazier, the groups feel the need to constantly put down other groups, because they believe that if they can make these other groups appear "shorter," they'll appear "taller."



Too bad it doesn't work that way.



From: salyavin808 <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 5:39 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Most Absurd Rumor


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@yahoogroups.com> wrote :

Indeed. And it was put forward by the infamous Buddhist that used to post here, Vaj.


Of course it was rubbish but it comes from the same sort of place that the other rumours have, the place where Marshy has to be a superman, obviously it's more inspiring if your guru has amazing powers like walking on water. That's why they invent these stories, it makes the decision to follow him to be a more important one than just choosing a type of meditation. Divine assurance perhaps.


But I don't think Vaj invented it, it was part of Earl Kaplan's letter and he got it from whatever source in India he spoke to. I felt a bit sorry for him because he got duped by one cult and ran straight into the arms of another. I hope he's got some smarts at last and realised there is no authority but yourself.

---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

On 11/17/2014 10:11 AM, Michael Jackson wrote:
I think I asked this once a long time ago, but I am posting this again if so:


What was the most absurd TM rumor you ever heard?
The most absurd rumor I ever heard was on an internet discussion group.

The rumor posted claimed that the Maharishi had murdered his master SBS, by poisoning his food in a conspiracy with the Jyotirmath Ashram cook.

The motive apparently was for the Mahesh Yogi to get SBS's special ring and ruby-encrusted yantra. And, with a forged will, the cook would get the Shankaracharya highchair at the Upper Kashi.

As far as rumors go, it is going to be difficult to top this one.
This would be something that was not part of the official TM cannon, nor any of the majorly accepted ones (like Marshy's enlightened, TM brings enlightenment or yogic flying brings world peace)


I am talking about the boundless rumors we all heard on courses and in TM facilities and from TM old timers.


Mine would I think have to be the idea that having animals around when you are meditating drains your energy. That one supposedly came from Marshy himself but who knows.


Other than that it would be Claire Baxter's classic never meditate with your hair wet because the stress you release comes out of your crown chakra, and if your hair is wet the stress slides down your hair and goes into your lower spine.



I include that one second, just because I only heard it from that one person and the animal energy drain was one I heard a lot from lots of different people.



How bout yours? Most absurd TM rumor?
'Richard J. Williams' punditster@gmail.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-18 19:23:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by salyavin808
I'd forgotten all that, the plot thickens! Is the spiritual world this
crazy for people in other groups?
*/It can get much worse. Any time you have a group of people so
lacking in real self-esteem that they gain pretty much ALL of their
sense of self-worth from 1) the teacher they work with, 2) the group
of people they're part of, or 3) both, you've got the potential for
major craziness./*
/**/>
Oh Gawd - this is getting to be too much for us to deal with - this is
the exact opposite of what you just posted on your web site!

/"So what you do is, if you are not capable of going into samadhi
yourself, you try and find a teacher who is, and you sit with them on a
weekly or monthly or daily basis, depending on your proximity to the
teacher. And just to be around them, if the teacher is truly
enlightened, that energy and light is always coming forth from them."/ -
Rama
Post by salyavin808
*/They feel the need to constantly invent new myth-pedestals to put
their teachers on, because they believe that the higher they can
pretend their teacher is, the higher they are. Even crazier, the
groups feel the need to constantly put down other groups, because they
believe that if they can make these other groups appear "shorter,"
they'll appear "taller."
/*
/"To be in their physical presence is a great boon, not of the teacher
but of that light which passes through them. If you can develop a
connection, what we call an inner connection with the teacher, then it
is not even necessary to be in the physical presence of the teacher,
although it will always be stronger." - /Rama
Post by salyavin808
*/Too bad it doesn't work that way./*
How could a single person get so confused? Go figure.

http://www.ramalila.net/RoadTripMind/rtm03.html
<http://www.ramalila.net/RoadTripMind/rtm03.html>
'Richard J. Williams' punditster@gmail.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-18 18:30:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by nablusoss1008
Indeed. And it was put forward by the infamous Buddhist that used to post here, Vaj.
And, don't forget the "ColdBluIce", the discredited bhakti yoga impostor.

According to these two rumor-mongers, SBS died because the Jyotirmath
Ashram cook, in a conspiracy with the Mahesh Yogi, put poison in his
food when they were down in Calcutta on a speaking tour.

However, everyone knows that the "cook" was not even in Calcutta with
SBS on that tour, and not even at the Jyotirmath - he was at the ashram
in Allahabad when SBS died.

According to the rumor, the "cook" was a guy named /Tilwari/, a former
book-binder. In reality, the Jyotirmath cook was Swami Shantanand
Saraswati, the foremost student of SBS. According to the rumor, the cook
wanted to sit on the Shankaracharya high chair under the big umbrella,
so he killed the Shankaracharya by putting something in his food.

However, it should be noted that the cook, Shantanand, was mentioned in
the will of SBS as his successor. So, Shantanand was the only
direct-line disciple in the SBS succession tradition.

Why would Shantanand want to kill SBS when he was already in direct line
to succeed SBS in just a few years? It doesn't even make any sense.

For the record, nobody has contested the SBS will in a court of Indian law.

The rest of the rumor - /about the ring and the yantra/ - doesn't make
any sens either.

According to Perino and Vaj, the Mahesh Yogi couldn't get the high chair
for caste reasons, so in a conspiracy with the ashram cook, SBS was
murdered so that Mahesh could get the ring and the yantra. What ring?

SBS didn't wear a ring on his finger and neither did MMY. It has not
even been proven that SBS was in possession of a ruby-encrusted yantra -
that's just another rumor!

So, where is the SBS yantra and ring now? At Bevan's house?

The whole rumor is just beyond belief and absurd on it's face put up by
idiots. /That's what I think./
Post by nablusoss1008
What was the most absurd TM rumor you ever heard?
/The most absurd rumor I ever heard was on an internet discussion group.
The rumor posted claimed that the Maharishi had murdered his master
SBS, by poisoning his food in a conspiracy with the Jyotirmath Ashram
cook.
The motive apparently was for the Mahesh Yogi to get SBS's special
ring and ruby-encrusted yantra. And, with a forged will, the cook
would get the Shankaracharya highchair at the Upper Kashi./
/As far as rumors go, it is going to be difficult to top this one./
This would be something that was not part of the official TM cannon,
nor any of the majorly accepted ones (like Marshy's enlightened, TM
brings enlightenment or yogic flying brings world peace)
I am talking about the boundless rumors we all heard on courses and in
TM facilities and from TM old timers.
Mine would I think have to be the idea that having animals around when
you are meditating drains your energy. That one supposedly came from
Marshy himself but who knows.
Other than that it would be Claire Baxter's classic never meditate
with your hair wet because the stress you release comes out of your
crown chakra, and if your hair is wet the stress slides down your hair
and goes into your lower spine.
I include that one second, just because I only heard it from that one
person and the animal energy drain was one I heard a lot from lots of
different people.
How bout yours? Most absurd TM rumor?
Duveyoung
2014-11-17 16:27:18 UTC
Permalink
Heard stories of the Maharishi miracles of being in two places at once, telling the driver to do high speeds and ignore red lights to get to the airport, "taking back" by "magic" a crystal necklace from what's-her-name when she refused to return it to him, and heard of MMY touching a guy's brain-tumor head and saying "let them do anything but don't let them cut" -- which then healed.
Michael Jackson mjackson74@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-17 17:37:07 UTC
Permalink
Now those are good ones for sure - never had heard of the one about the crystal necklace!

From: Duveyoung <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2014 11:27 AM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Most Absurd Rumor

  Heard stories of the Maharishi miracles of being in two places at once, telling the driver to do high speeds and ignore red lights to get to the airport, "taking back" by "magic" a crystal necklace from what's-her-name when she refused to return it to him, and heard of MMY touching a guy's brain-tumor head and saying "let them do anything but don't let them cut" -- which then healed.  #yiv1228724281 #yiv1228724281 -- #yiv1228724281ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv1228724281 #yiv1228724281ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv1228724281 #yiv1228724281ygrp-mkp #yiv1228724281hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#yiv1228724281 #yiv1228724281ygrp-mkp #yiv1228724281ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv1228724281 #yiv1228724281ygrp-mkp .yiv1228724281ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv1228724281 #yiv1228724281ygrp-mkp .yiv1228724281ad p {margin:0;}#yiv1228724281 #yiv1228724281ygrp-mkp .yiv1228724281ad a 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curtisdeltablues@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-17 18:24:29 UTC
Permalink
The movement needed the vague rumors and innuendos of Mahrishi's magical powers to sell the idea of his specialness, One of the most persistent myths was that his needing little sleep was unique thing. I just read an article about the sleeping habits of high performing executives who run big companies. Guess what, they don't sleep much. They have a lot of energy, have tons of ambition and are just interested in sleeping enough to recharge for the next round of world domination.

Are we really gunna say that buttholes like Donald Trump are living a higher state, or do we have to admit that Maharishi much touted lack of sleep is what lots of people get away with and it seems to go along with ambition and drive. Maharishi had plenty of both.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

Now those are good ones for sure - never had heard of the one about the crystal necklace!


From: Duveyoung <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2014 11:27 AM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Most Absurd Rumor


Heard stories of the Maharishi miracles of being in two places at once, telling the driver to do high speeds and ignore red lights to get to the airport, "taking back" by "magic" a crystal necklace from what's-her-name when she refused to return it to him, and heard of MMY touching a guy's brain-tumor head and saying "let them do anything but don't let them cut" -- which then healed.
Michael Jackson mjackson74@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-17 19:20:23 UTC
Permalink
That's how he had the time and energy to get those gals to help him check his mail in the wee hours of the night.

From: "***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2014 1:24 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Most Absurd Rumor

  The movement needed the vague rumors and innuendos of Mahrishi's magical powers to sell the idea of his specialness, One of the most persistent myths was that his needing little sleep was unique thing. I just read an article about the sleeping habits of high performing executives who run big companies. Guess what, they don't sleep much. They have a lot of energy, have tons of ambition and are just interested in sleeping enough to recharge for the next round of world domination.

Are we really gunna say that buttholes like Donald Trump are living a higher state, or do we have to admit that Maharishi much touted lack of sleep is what lots of people get away with and it seems to go along with ambition and drive. Maharishi had plenty of both.




---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

Now those are good ones for sure - never had heard of the one about the crystal necklace!

From: Duveyoung <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2014 11:27 AM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Most Absurd Rumor

 Heard stories of the Maharishi miracles of being in two places at once, telling the driver to do high speeds and ignore red lights to get to the airport, "taking back" by "magic" a crystal necklace from what's-her-name when she refused to return it to him, and heard of MMY touching a guy's brain-tumor head and saying "let them do anything but don't let them cut" -- which then healed. 

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'Richard J. Williams' punditster@gmail.com [FairfieldLife]
2014-11-18 02:04:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Jackson ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
That's how he had the time and energy to get those gals to help him
check his mail in the wee hours of the night.
/It's pretty common knowledge that MMY used to have help checking his
mail in the early morning hours after everyone else had tuckered out and
gone to bed to get some much needed sleep.

All I can say is that I am highly impressed with a guy his age working
all day running a multi-billion dollar world-wide organization and then
staying up till the wee hours to check his mail and get laid every night.

This guy was just AWESOME!//
//
//And, you're complaining about setting a few tables in the MUM dinning
room? The Mahesh Yogi at 70 made you look like a slacker at age 24. Go
figure./
Post by Michael Jackson ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Sent:* Monday, November 17, 2014 1:24 PM
*Subject:* Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Most Absurd Rumor
The movement needed the vague rumors and innuendos of Mahrishi's
magical powers to sell the idea of his specialness, One of the most
persistent myths was that his needing little sleep was unique thing. I
just read an article about the sleeping habits of high performing
executives who run big companies. Guess what, they don't sleep much.
They have a lot of energy, have tons of ambition and are just
interested in sleeping enough to recharge for the next round of world
domination.
Are we really gunna say that buttholes like Donald Trump are living a
higher state, or do we have to admit that Maharishi much touted lack
of sleep is what lots of people get away with and it seems to go along
with ambition and drive. Maharishi had plenty of both.
Now those are good ones for sure - never had heard of the one about the crystal necklace!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Sent:* Monday, November 17, 2014 11:27 AM
*Subject:* [FairfieldLife] Re: Most Absurd Rumor
Heard stories of the Maharishi miracles of being in two places at
once, telling the driver to do high speeds and ignore red lights to
get to the airport, "taking back" by "magic" a crystal necklace from
what's-her-name when she refused to return it to him, and heard of MMY
touching a guy's brain-tumor head and saying "let them do anything but
don't let them cut" -- which then healed.
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